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  #41  
Old February 12th, 2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reese_D90 View Post
Andy,
It looks like you could pick up a D110 at a pretty good price in Brazil. You could buy a mid-late 80s truck for under $20k and keep it down there. You would have the option of bringing it into the states once its 25 years old. That would make for a hell of a road trip to Dallas.
That thought already crossed my mind. One route would be north through Brazil and the Amazon then ship it across from Bahia. The other would be up the middle through Columbia and ship it past the Darien gap to Panama and continue the trip north. The biggest issue would be the amount of time the trip would take which I don't have at the moment.

We have a small car here now but our family barely fits in it. A 110 would be plenty big to haul them around the island and I could take it for weekend trips into the mountains of the pacific rain forest. We are here now remodeling our apartment (ie. no cash for new ride) so once that is done then I'll save up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quick128 View Post
You're a dick...
That's the exact kind of comment that, IMO, is simply not needed. It's mean spirited and serves to add nothing to this conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
Perhaps since you are still in Brasil, sit back Caipirinha in hand and re-visit the situation and perceptions.
That's an excellent idea. I like large Caiparinhas on the beach. The natural beauty of the ocean, mountains and small bikinis don't suck either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
one of the cores of Leadership it is a proactive effort rather than reactive.
I agree and we have discussed this. Our intent is to reach out to people who are pushing the limits too far privately and point out the issues and ask them to cool it down. We can only do this for so long and if they continue we have to hold them accountable (ie. the recent closing of Dan's account).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
Many self directed Teams can be extremely successful when the guidance is adequate and the constant training is available, but history has always showed that it is not something that happens overnight, and your passionate Team has/will easily de-rail.
It will take us some time to find our way and we will make some mistakes. Essentially each issue is a learning experience and as we talk them through we will define where the line in the sand is drawn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
Lastly no need to close a thread having the final word, it gives the Bonaparte perception.
I agree 100% and in hindsight, I should not have closed that thread. One of the golden rules of moderation is to excuse yourself from moderating any discussions you are participating in because of the perception of a conflict of interest. I closed that thread because I was tired and got emotionally caught up in the moment. After closing it, I thought about re-opening it but then realize I would get flogged for that as well. Our team will make sure to discuss this so we are all on the same page regarding this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
Did all the new mods added to the team already have a grudge against Dan and want him banned long ago or are they all truly impartial?
I don't even know how the new mods feel about Dan, he was banned before they were asked to join the team.
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  #42  
Old February 12th, 2012, 07:54 AM
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  #43  
Old February 12th, 2012, 08:02 AM
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Wow, what entertainment!! This is better then my local morning paper. I'm gonna get a laptop now so I can read this forum on the can, before it goes in the can, and what a shame that would be. I (like most) come to this site because of the wealth of information there is to be had about our mutual love for these trucks, and the sharring of our knowledge and experience. Let us not forget that most of us like getting our hands and trucks dirty in good fun. Free press applies to the internet as well, and I say ( for those who have conflicts) put your truck and skills where your mouth is!. That would most likely create more outings and events, which in return would give members a much better way to spend there time here.
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  #44  
Old February 12th, 2012, 08:18 AM
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I use this site as a resource for tips, instructions, possibly locating parts and generally becoming informed on topics I may not know much about. I do not use it as a social media, for general banter or cyber dead horse beating which is what a lot of posts seem to turn into. Having said that any moderation is not likley to affect the way I use the site.
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  #45  
Old February 12th, 2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell View Post
Steve, this forum has started to suck because the Defender community is not like it used to be. NAS Defenders used to be really expensive and cream puff examples were a dime-a-dozen. Now you can pick up a beater for $12K and every ex-Jeeper with a two car garage can buy one. The new generation of owners is cheaper than ever and the hack-job is good enough for them. Furthermore, ExPo-ization has taken hold in the Defender community and now everyone wants a Baja Rack and a trailer with an RTT and kitchen. Nobody gives a shit about a pristine Defender anymore. It's all about how much bullshit you can bolt on and pull behind your truck. The Moron Hordes (credit for that term goes to Jack Quinlan) have taken over and they are here to stay and this site will never be the same again.
don't have a durn garage. them are for tha rich folk. I don build a leen to from cardbord and logs. Wercs grate. Park my CJ kia trans am two racing lawn mowrs, LR3 and NAS 90 in er. gonna hav to git mor cardbord for the NAS 110 wit 4 roof raks n 44 inch boggers. Git er don!

In all seriousness, I'm pretty sure the folks at the center of this Rome's Burning crisis are "regulars" who have owned or been a part of the LR community for a heck of a lot longer than us "Moron Hordes." I think there are a lot of Type A personalities here which creates a Chiefs to Indians ratio dilemma.
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  #46  
Old February 12th, 2012, 08:31 AM
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Enough already, I'm trying to figure out what happen to Whitney!

I don't see the problem, I always wondered how the Moderators did all this work for free, and I have really only seen changes for the good.

As far as the banning, if someone was causing all that sh$t at a party, in any of our houses, we, I would kick his ass to the curb!

Also got a kick out of the loss of "Exclusivity"
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  #47  
Old February 12th, 2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manimal View Post
I think these discussions go to prove that self-moderation doesn't work. Dan crossed a line and he's out. Many here seem eager to jump to conclusions even though very few of you have all the facts. This was definitely not a case of over-moderation. It was the right thing to do. What I'm wondering is, where were all of you self-moderators to prevent that from happening? You are asking for the members to moderate themselves but what are you doing about it? Where would YOU draw the line? If self-moderation implies accepting every kind of vile and disturbing behavior in the book then it simply won't work. We have about 4500 other members here who are not interested in putting up with that kind of crap.

If you all are so concerned about over-moderation then you really need to lead by example. Start being more respectful. A crazy thing happens when you're respectful. People listen. If we make a conscious effort to be respectful when commenting on someones for sale thread there will never be a need to moderate or close a thread. Funny how that works. Many of you have been both rude and disrespectful to Andy. Not how you think that will benefit you. We should all start showing more respect in every post that we make from hereon.

I disagree about the site not changing at all. There is so much room for improvement here. Improvements that would benefit us all as members. Other than the forum there's a lot of stale features here that no one ever uses. We should replace those with new ones that we find more useful. It is up to us to figure out what we would want some of those improvements to be. A few improvements have already been implemented (increasing PM storage, larger resolution attachments, registry, etc) and that is a step in the right direction. This site, or anything else for that matter, will never be frozen in time. Permanence is an illusion. Get over it.

The false requirement that you would have to own a Defender to properly run this forum is absolute BS. Andy has a lot of experience running forums and that is all the experience he needs. He doesn't need to know shit about Defenders because WE provide the content. It's his job to facilitate that content, not contribute to it. If he likes Defenders and wants to get one thats great but I couldn't care less. Andy & team has done nothing but listen to all of our suggestions. All they are doing currently is to carry on the site as Chris intended and with the rules that Chris set up long ago, as well as make some small but long overdue improvements. That's it. Ask Chris if you have any doubt about this.

If you want this site to be a better, less moderated forum then do you part and don't be a shit-bag.
Well-said. Self-moderation works until it doesn't. Happens to every self-regulating group.
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  #48  
Old February 12th, 2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy R View Post

I don't even know how the new mods feel about Dan, he was banned before they were asked to join the team.
Didn't you guys add a bunch of new mods within the past 2 months or so? I don't read all of the threads on here but I vaguely remember a bunch of people being added to "the team" and all of the sudden a huge amount of drama has ensued. I don't really care but all the sites that have drama on the forum are all heavily moderated.
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  #49  
Old February 12th, 2012, 10:28 AM
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Over moderation...Please.

For every 1 person that threatens to leave, as a result of the recent actions, 10 more will join.


Bravo Andy and the Mod team!!!

Anyone with common sense would understand that the easy/cowardly route is to sit back and do nothing while someone bastardize our community.

Nice to see the team here is finally stepping up and willing to enforce the clear and basic rules of social norms.

Thank you for helping get this site get back on track. Much appreciated!
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  #50  
Old February 12th, 2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
Didn't you guys add a bunch of new mods within the past 2 months or so? I don't read all of the threads on here but I vaguely remember a bunch of people being added to "the team" and all of the sudden a huge amount of drama has ensued. I don't really care but all the sites that have drama on the forum are all heavily moderated.
We added woldd90 , Red90 and Manimal to the team a little over a month ago. Here is the announcement:
Quote:
As I mentioned in the other announcement, we have been short staffed and wanted to expand the mod/admin team. Although managing a community like this does not take a lot of work, having a few more helpers will be a great benefit. Zapping spam, helping members with account issues and other routine tasks are easy. Where the greatest help is provided is simply by contributing their opinions on management issues we face. Growing the team will help make sure our community will continue to be managed by the same passionate members who make this community so special.
We intentionally looked for members who were not close buddies of the existing staff as we felt that's the best way to get different opinions on how to handle issues. Not only did we want more perspectives on how to handle things but the team members have regular day-to-day stuff to deal with so when an issue needs to be handled swiftly we need a few folks around to discuss the best way to move forward.

I am sure the one two punch of banning Dan and expanding the team looks suspicious to those who wear tin foil hats and think we are out to sanitize this place. That is not our intent even though we do plan to draw a line in the sand and address some of the hateful attacks that have become more prevalent.

I can assure you everyone on the team understands that we don't need to change much in the way this place is managed. The only thing we will do is hold people accountable who are violating some of the rules that lead to a more vitriolic atmosphere (in bold):
  • Please be respectful to other users and avoid personal attacks. Respect constructive input or opinions of other forum members just as you would like yours to be.
  • Debates, cross discussions, and disagreements are bound to happen. Please try to remain calm should you find yourself in a heated thread.
  • Trolling, flaming, and attacks on other Members or Vendors, will not be tolerated.
  • Please do not hi-jack other members Technical or Classified threads.
This stuff is not black and white and often issues fall in the gray zone. It will be up to the team to discuss if an issue is over the line and if so we will follow our process on dealing with it.
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  #51  
Old February 12th, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Short of closing a thread or banning someone........what other powers does a moderator really have???

The point is......... the "best" moderation is by the community itself. If someone is out of line others will challenge or marginalize that person.........community moderation.

It's only when these powers become limited or concentrated that problems emerge.


This site has always run from the mostly self-governing principle........making it great. Having said that, not much has really changed as Andy pointed out. But for some reason I have noticed a definite change in "tone", ie a little more muted.

This is what happens even when the illusion of moderation is introduced. It has a chilling effect. People are less likely to "challenge" each other on opinions are give their own. That is NOT good.

I understand moderated are necessary............just "tread lightly".
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  #52  
Old February 12th, 2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manimal View Post
I think these discussions go to prove that self-moderation doesn't work. Dan crossed a line and he's out. Many here seem eager to jump to conclusions even though very few of you have all the facts. This was definitely not a case of over-moderation. It was the right thing to do. What I'm wondering is, where were all of you self-moderators to prevent that from happening? You are asking for the members to moderate themselves but what are you doing about it? Where would YOU draw the line? If self-moderation implies accepting every kind of vile and disturbing behavior in the book then it simply won't work. We have about 4500 other members here who are not interested in putting up with that kind of crap.

If you all are so concerned about over-moderation then you really need to lead by example. Start being more respectful. A crazy thing happens when you're respectful. People listen. If we make a conscious effort to be respectful when commenting on someones for sale thread there will never be a need to moderate or close a thread. Funny how that works. Many of you have been both rude and disrespectful to Andy. Not how you think that will benefit you. We should all start showing more respect in every post that we make from hereon.

I disagree about the site not changing at all. There is so much room for improvement here. Improvements that would benefit us all as members. Other than the forum there's a lot of stale features here that no one ever uses. We should replace those with new ones that we find more useful. It is up to us to figure out what we would want some of those improvements to be. A few improvements have already been implemented (increasing PM storage, larger resolution attachments, registry, etc) and that is a step in the right direction. This site, or anything else for that matter, will never be frozen in time. Permanence is an illusion. Get over it.

The false requirement that you would have to own a Defender to properly run this forum is absolute BS. Andy has a lot of experience running forums and that is all the experience he needs. He doesn't need to know shit about Defenders because WE provide the content. It's his job to facilitate that content, not contribute to it. If he likes Defenders and wants to get one thats great but I couldn't care less. Andy & team has done nothing but listen to all of our suggestions. All they are doing currently is to carry on the site as Chris intended and with the rules that Chris set up long ago, as well as make some small but long overdue improvements. That's it. Ask Chris if you have any doubt about this.

If you want this site to be a better, less moderated forum then do you part and don't be a shit-bag.
Carl, nice to see that you've become one of the grown-ups. Does this mean I can now put rock sliders on my truck for my infrequent trips to Starbucks and the tennis club without your scorn and hatred?
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  #53  
Old February 12th, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell View Post
the Defender community is not like it used to be.
I know, what a relief. This forum has gotten so bad, that we seem to be getting all the morons from over on Discoweb and ExPo.
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  #54  
Old February 12th, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikojo View Post
Short of closing a thread or banning someone........what other powers does a moderator really have???

The point is......... the "best" moderation is by the community itself. If someone is out of line others will challenge or marginalize that person.........community moderation.

It's only when these powers become limited or concentrated that problems emerge.


This site has always run from the mostly self-governing principle........making it great. Having said that, not much has really changed as Andy pointed out. But for some reason I have noticed a definite change in "tone", ie a little more muted.

This is what happens even when the illusion of moderation is introduced. It has a chilling effect. People are less likely to "challenge" each other on opinions are give their own. That is NOT good.

I understand moderated are necessary............just "tread lightly".
They do have the power to delete posts as well, as shown already by one of the Super Heroes that claims PARANOIA here, yet his fingers quickly edited a thread.

Another Super Hero, claims " Leading by Example " however it appears not to be applicable to his own team members. ( read this thread and find the answer to it )
Also claims of illusions are made and any not so full of themselves person will know the real illusion is CONTROL , no one can't control other's actions, but then again, I have no respect for punchlines used to try to make someone feel knowledgeable.


No one should be able to change an intent of a member, if that member is out of line, by all means post " Hey Goose, or policies clearly state you can't do that, if you continue, I will have to close the thread / send you to a week time out/ etc "

I perceive the answer / tone used from those newly added mods a plain an simple Power Trip

Calling you a liar, deceitful , miss-representing, it is not disrespect , as I will have no problem to tell you that in your face as well, I often wonder what will happen when those Super Heroes are told things of that nature...
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  #55  
Old February 12th, 2012, 11:44 AM
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So wait, I can't call someone a dick anymore? That's a problem. What's funny is all the people I actually know and like seem to have a similar view of the changes. To be clear, if I don't like you or something you say then I will tell you here or in person. I'm not an internet tuff guy. I'm used to people hating me and on occasion trying to kill me so I'm not afraid of being mean or hurting someones feelings. I will continue to call things as I see them.
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  #56  
Old February 12th, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quick128 View Post
So wait, I can't call someone a dick anymore?
When an issue is brought to our attention (such as this one) we will discuss this issue as a team and communicate with members via PM once we decide how to proceed.
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  #57  
Old February 12th, 2012, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy R View Post
When an issue is brought to our attention (such as this one) we will discuss this issue as a team and communicate with members via PM once we decide how to proceed.
Wow, I see how this is all going to end. Just like all the other lame sites.
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  #58  
Old February 12th, 2012, 01:19 PM
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That's cool. Infer that I'm a wacko wearing a tin foil hat. I consider this an attack. Against the rules. Ban.


It's the Internet. Don't get your panties in a wad. I find it hard to believe that the original issue(I don't know which thread started this whole thing) was dealt with calmly and impartially to begin with based on the outcome and fallout.
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  #59  
Old February 12th, 2012, 03:30 PM
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I just want to know how long until this thread is closed?
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  #60  
Old February 12th, 2012, 03:44 PM
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The changes going on this site will not deter me from this site, but grown men consistently bitching will. If you don't like it, please unshbscribe and spare the rest of us having to read five paragraph rants. Thanks to andy and the other moderator's for putting up with the petty bs.
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