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  #61  
Old November 24th, 2011, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjf
I actually think the brg is the least desired color of 97. There always seems to be a glut of them for sale with low miles. They do go for decent money but there is no shortage of them always for sale.
I second that.

------ Follow up post added November 24th, 2011 09:51 PM ------

It goes '97 Black, '97 Monza (or flip flop those), '97 LE, '97 Yellow, probably then BRG.
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  #62  
Old November 24th, 2011, 09:56 PM
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White has to be worth more than brg as a soft top.
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  #63  
Old November 24th, 2011, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjf View Post
I actually think the brg is the least desired color of 97. There always seems to be a glut of them for sale with low miles. They do go for decent money but there is no shortage of them always for sale.
I'll go a little further and offer up that there always seems to be more '97s for sale than earlier years. At one point earlier this year there were 15 NAS trucks on eBay and 12 of them were '97s. Makes me think the manual transmission plus the ST option are more desirable.
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  #64  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bjf
White has to be worth more than brg as a soft top.
I always forget about white. That's probably true.
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  #65  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:13 PM
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The "winning" bidder for this NAS cage: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140641211621

was "a***r".

Where the bidder on this green 97' SW was "r**a".

Something smells fishy.
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  #66  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:14 PM
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I hate to take this even further off topic and rank the colors. All that is important is that we remember the black 97 will always be worth more than the common green 97 sw and the bidding we saw on ebay was either George having fun with his dad's ebay account or a shill bidder.

------ Follow up post added November 24th, 2011 07:16 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
The "winning" bidder for this NAS cage: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140641211621

was "a***r".

Where the bidder on this green 97' SW was "r**a".

Something smells fishy.
2k for a cage with no foam.
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  #67  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:16 PM
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Speculating a shill bidder for that NAS cage too.
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  #68  
Old November 24th, 2011, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
The "winning" bidder for this NAS cage: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140641211621

was "a***r".

Where the bidder on this green 97' SW was "r**a".

Something smells fishy.
I doubt these two things have anything to do with each other.
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  #69  
Old November 24th, 2011, 11:29 PM
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This thread is comical. The theories about why SWs are more collectible and more valuable than STs is hilarious. It all seems like nonsense.

If you are judging SWs collectibility and value based on what people decide to ask for them on ebay or by what KBB or NADA state as values then you really need to do some more market research. If you owned a Shelby GT350, I doubt you would sell it for what KBB told you it was worth. Asking prices on ebay have to be taken with a grain of salt as well. Most people on ebay are counting on the "idiot factor" so they price accordingly. So many people on ebay bid without doing the necessary research and tend to get caught up in the heat of the moment. I can't tell you how many times I've seen items go for more than they are worth and sometimes these are items that are still readily available on the market. Just because this seller is asking $95K for an SW doesn't automatically set the standard for body style values. You can't base your "research" on a few errant cases. You need to base it on a larger grouping or pool of cases. In addition, you have to take into account the actual condition of a truck. Pricing isn't just based on mileage.

Also, don't assume you know who is bidding on that ebay auction. Ebay hides/disguises bidder identities now.

I guarantee there aren't more people out there who want to make their STs into SWs. I'm sure those who have sought out an SW did so for additional practicality not additional collectibility. And no way does it only take a few hours to change one body style over to the other. Check some past threads and you'll see the pain and labor that is required to do this transformation.

Not only that, as mentioned before, the ST parts are more valuable based on the limited production of the parts and the fact that they are no longer available. You can't compare some bent tubing to a custom manufactured part, nor can you compare the new SVX cage to the NAS cage. They are two different items each requiring different amounts of work and effort. Don't be mesmerized by the sparkly silver paint used to coat the SVX cage. That doesn't make it more robust or of higher quality. That's just a finish. I think the real testament to the fact that the NAS cage is not reproducible is that fact that other companies already make copies of the SVX cage but no one has ever made a copy of the NAS cage. In terms of fit and finish, you are comparing a 2008 model truck to a mid-late 90s truck, of course the newer model will look better. And, for all we know, that SVX cage could be purely aesthetic and not even tied to the frame.

Also, I've mentioned this before but having a white roof on an SW is nothing special. They all had it, so calling it a green or Conniston SW is ok.

I'll agree that the BRG ST has to be one of the least desired colors of all NAS defenders. It terms of SW colors, taking year out of the equation, it has to be Portofino or Arles then White or Conniston. LEs are a different matter. Auto will also always be more valuable than a manual since there are so few factory autos on the market worldwide.
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  #70  
Old November 25th, 2011, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bjf View Post
You are funny. You know so much. I am glad there are some new people on the board to teach me things. I mean if you didn't join I wouldn't know that the oval didn't come around the land rover logo on the 95 and 97 steering wheel.
Hahaha Im blushing. Wow so much good organic food and alcohol but I have to reply with the blur hehe!

Quote:
At least when you are responding to me try to quote me correctly. I never said people want wagons over soft tops. I said there is an equal amount of people who are looking for something different. SW to ST or ST to SW. I said when this happens people always want the soft top parts. The wagon parts are not in high demand and hence it is much more money to go make a SW into a ST. Not the other way around.
Ahhhh ok sorry didn't understand completely. Yes, I do understand soft top parts are more in demand but that's still doesn't take away from the fact that nice STs can't be had for reasonable prices and that it would be foolish not to buy one rather then convert to an ST. I have to say that I have seen more STs go SW then vice versa.


Quote:
I know you think you know everything but the cage you posted isn't even the same regardless of the foam. I know you are eager to be an expert. At least try to do a bit more research. Do you even understand the underpinning of the cage on a NAS truck?
Not trying to be anything but genuine and truthful. I looked at my parts diagram of the ST cage and the SD cage and they were very close. While it may not be bolt on, its also not impossible to make it work with some modifications. This cage is used for overseas ST conversion that will be part of the ROW illegal hoard that will be invading our shores that you speculate.


Quote:
Do you no how many times I have bid for people where they ask me to bid a few times before the reserve is met just to get it going.
I completely understand the shill bidding tactics your were speaking when you first mentioned it. Go look at the listing and click on bids. 1 bidder had bid with reserve not met. Toward the end the of listing he changed his bid 4 times. He was not bidding with anyone but try to possibly raise it to see where the reserve was. It was more then what he was willing to pay which was over 95k+.

[QUOTE]Since the SW is worth much more in your opinion than a ST you should strike while the iron is hot. Sell your common 97 now before the market is floaded with ROW trucks and buy that super sexy SVX.[/QUOTE

]Barry the instigator! How about I explain the large difference from your 3.9l 94 over the 4.0l 97 which is so vast your going to need propofol just to sleep from the insomnia your going to have after I give the hard truth about the updates they have done.

Quote:
At least with that truck you can't buy all the parts to recreate it (cage, decals, etc) unless you can prove to land rover you own one of the limited numbers. You probably already knew that though since you are an expert.
I guess your the real expert. I had the chance to buy the heated Recaro seats that came in them but didn't want to pay the high price.

Quote:
I need to let this thread die because you know too much and the quoting is making me tired. Enjoy your green wagon. I will know if i see one driving around in LA it is you because odds are being how rare it is who else could it be.
Fair enough. I learned so much from this and have no hard feelings whats so ever & once I get my ST I will have the best of both worlds!

There is a girl I have seen drive a blue ST so if its not her Ill look for you through your plastic window to wave hello.
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  #71  
Old November 25th, 2011, 11:48 AM
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Nothing is impossible but the cages are different and that is the point. I didn't even mention that the NAS truck came with no rear bulkhead. I guess you can buy a truck set up that way or leave it in. In the end the ST cage available now is different and more cosmetic and not as safe as the NAS one. When you look you need to take into account what is attached to the frame.

The recaros aren't part of the package of parts you can't buy due to being SVX exclusive. I think it is good you didn't get them. The would be pure ghetto in your truck.

I have no doubt the 4.0 is better than the 3.9 but just so it is clear I hope you know that is like making the comparison between old dog shit and fresh dog shit. Sure one is all moist and fresh from the dog's anus, while the other is dry and probably white, but in the end they are both still shit.
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  #72  
Old November 26th, 2011, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjf View Post
I hate to take this even further off topic and rank the colors. All that is important is that we remember the black 97 will always be worth more than the common green 97 sw and the bidding we saw on ebay was either George having fun with his dad's ebay account or a shill bidder.

------ Follow up post added November 24th, 2011 07:16 PM ------



2k for a cage with no foam.
You just throw out what ever you want to say true or not and nobody is going to take you seriously or give credibly to you. No i did not bid on the Green SW and someone wanted that car and was willing to pay more then the black ST and this is obvious. Even the owner who looks to be a big car collector wanted more for it due to its desirably and rareness with only 340 in 97 the best year of all for the NAS
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  #73  
Old November 26th, 2011, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DefenderPilot View Post
97 the best year of all for the NAS
As others pointed out, this is your opinion - which you are entitled to. However, I - like many - would never buy an automatic in a Defender or an older Rover. So for me, not the best year, and would preclude me purchasing it.
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  #74  
Old November 26th, 2011, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specops1526 View Post
This thread is comical. The theories about why SWs are more collectible and more valuable than STs is hilarious. It all seems like nonsense.

If you are judging SWs collectibility and value based on what people decide to ask for them on ebay or by what KBB or NADA state as values then you really need to do some more market research. If you owned a Shelby GT350, I doubt you would sell it for what KBB told you it was worth. Asking prices on ebay have to be taken with a grain of salt as well. Most people on ebay are counting on the "idiot factor" so they price accordingly. So many people on ebay bid without doing the necessary research and tend to get caught up in the heat of the moment. I can't tell you how many times I've seen items go for more than they are worth and sometimes these are items that are still readily available on the market. Just because this seller is asking $95K for an SW doesn't automatically set the standard for body style values. You can't base your "research" on a few errant cases. You need to base it on a larger grouping or pool of cases. In addition, you have to take into account the actual condition of a truck. Pricing isn't just based on mileage.

Also, don't assume you know who is bidding on that ebay auction. Ebay hides/disguises bidder identities now.
The prices are from current and sold offerings on various sites. When you go to Copley or Adventure Motor Cars (AMC) you can see their inventory. There other Defender specialists as well I can show but here are two trucks that Copley for comparison. These are very similar super nice trucks, the both of them with essentially the same miles and same year. One is ST and one SW

Here is a 97 Conistion/White SW http://www.copleymotorcars.com/land_...35.3vo982.html with 33K Miles list for $58.8k

Here is a 97 AA Yellow ST http://www.copleymotorcars.com/land_...35.3vo992.html with 34k miles listed for$ 54.8k

This is one of the top Defender dealer! Yet he has an SW at a higher price then the ST and Yellow ST which is one of the most exciting colors on an ST which I happen to like the most personally. The ST is supposed to be worth by your assumption. In fact out of all 10 Defenders Copley has in his inventory only 2 are SW!!!!!!

The SW on eBay you still make out and differentiate the bidders and see how many different bidders are bidding. This is shown go look before your act as if you can't know or make out the different bidders. While you cant see the full name you do see a partial one with the feedback score and this is all that is needed to know who is who. This is to protect identity but still allow users to see the bids and bidders. From this you can see that one person placed the bid then raised it 4 times towards the end to try and see where the reserve is which was who knows how high? Someone wanted that SW and was willing to pay 95+k for it ABSOLUTELY! This fact will never change for who ever that can't fathom it.

Quote:
I guarantee there aren't more people out there who want to make their STs into SWs. I'm sure those who have sought out an SW did so for additional practicality not additional collectibility. And no way does it only take a few hours to change one body style over to the other. Check some past threads and you'll see the pain and labor that is required to do this transformation.
Im not sure what you mean but NAS ST do switch to SW from time to time and im sure that's when cages tend to get sold off when they do. I didn't say a couple hour I said a few which means two or more for a pro shop which would have a few people working on it to remove the top.


This SW mish mash sold for 46k and one of the questions below is about taking the roof back off.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LHD-T...item336e6c234b

Quote:
Also, I've mentioned this before but having a white roof on an SW is nothing special. They all had it, so calling it a green or Conniston SW is ok.
I do it to emphasize it to the new readers and members to the Defender family & to show that the colors together really make the SW look very nice especially with the Conison Green combo & if you want to buy the best year 97, then you only have 340 of them to buy from.

------ Follow up post added November 26th, 2011 05:16 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
As others pointed out, this is your opinion - which you are entitled to. However, I - like many - would never buy an automatic in a Defender or an older Rover. So for me, not the best year, and would preclude me purchasing it.
Yes its my opinion but if you don't like the auto you can remove it for a manual and still get the other changes that made the 97 more improved. You may also have the opinion,of coarse, that those improvements are none that you care for. It is known though that the 97s do command the highest prices and this is proven with some members agreeing.
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  #75  
Old November 26th, 2011, 09:14 PM
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I love how when people argue with you, you change your argument. Suddenly going from a ST to SW you are mentioning a pro shop doing it with multiple people at once. Last time I checked this isn't Nascar, unless something is big and heavy or we are talking an ECR restoration, there aren't multiple people working on a truck. It is a huge pain but since you experience is limited to the green truck your wouldn't know that.

You on the one hand only want to talk NAS but then when we say just call it conniston wagon you get upset we don't mention the white roof. All the wagons have white tops so get over it.

As for that 46k truck, I would hardly call it a mish mash nor would Mike on the board who built it. It is a ROW wagon that was restored hence the price. If someone bidding wants to make it a soft top that truck can't be brought into the argument.

As for your lack of belief on shill bidding becauase it was one person bidding you have no clue how ebay works. I get called all the time to give a few bids before anyone else does. You might have checked who bid but the majority of people don't. They just see someone bid.

I hate to even ask but I would like Keith to chime in. He represents Copley. I am sure he can tell you the black will always be worth more than the green.

I would never want a black truck but I can tell you it is the most sought after color for NAS trucks. I would start a poll on values but I am too lazy.
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  #76  
Old November 26th, 2011, 09:32 PM
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I mean no disrespect to anyone but as an outsider this discussion seems to be going in circles, perhaps you should PM each other.
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  #77  
Old November 26th, 2011, 09:53 PM
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Ok, I'm glad you have opinions that seem to be quite subjective but just because Copley only has 2 SWs doesn't mean they are super rare. You do understand that inventory fluctuates, don't you? Also, take a look at the Green truck (yes, the one with the white roof), it has a bunch of accessories including the SD rack. My guess is that's the reasoning for the higher pricing. Like I said, you can't just compare trucks based on year and mileage.

So I said a couple of hours when referencing the conversion process and you actually said a few. Big deal, either way it's not going to take a couple of hours or even a few. You should try taking the roof off of your truck and let us know how long it takes. Then factor in putting an ST cage on and add up your hours. Your reference to River Mike's SW and the random question about making it a convertible has no relevance to this discussion. I hope you understand that, right? If not, I would probably refrain from making statements you can't back up from experience.

Again with the White roof thing. I highly doubt anyone, new or old here, cares about your opinion of the color combo. Yes, white roofs on Defenders look good but who really cares. You do realize that the white roof has been a Land Rover thing for years, right? I won't even give you the history as to why they do it since I'm sure you already know. We're also all very happy that you're in love with your Conniston truck and that it's one of 340 made in '97. Congratulations.

Anyway, making statements, that you believe are facts before doing any prior research, doesn't give you much credibility. You could learn a little if you just listened from those who have more experience and knowledge than you rather than claiming they know nothing. I guarantee that most of the people who have posted to this thread have a lot more knowledge about Defenders than you, except when it comes to steering wheels, of course.
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  #78  
Old November 26th, 2011, 10:10 PM
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I mean no disrespect to anyone but as an outsider this discussion seems to be going in circles, perhaps you should PM each other.
Its thanksgiving and the board is dead. You don't have to read it.
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  #79  
Old November 26th, 2011, 10:24 PM
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Russell,

Don't quit your day job and become and investigator

The seller of that cage is Dale ( Rovertrader ), and the buyer will certainly be someone on the up & up.

eBay masking of user id leaves a lot to desire and their suspicion of shill bidding it is pathetic





Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
The "winning" bidder for this NAS cage: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140641211621

was "a***r".

Where the bidder on this green 97' SW was "r**a".

Something smells fishy.
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  #80  
Old November 26th, 2011, 10:56 PM
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Its thanksgiving and the board is dead. You don't have to read it.
You're not kidding...it's like a ghost town around here. I feel like I'm the only one looking to waste as much time as possible this weekend. Where's Pedro when you need him?

We didn't travel, all my vehicle projects are ether done or awaiting parts, and I had no desire to start my house projects since they'll be weeks long (not days or hours). Jeez!
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