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  #41  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by roverguy View Post
Word is this guy has a third Defender in yellow... Direct quote from a trustworthy individual who tried to buy ST. Wonder what that one looks like?
WOW! Do you know if it was a 1997 and what the miles were on that one????
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  #42  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 06:05 PM
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WOW! Do you know if it was a 1997 and what the miles were on that one????
No clue. Just heard it was yellow. I would assume low mileage and well kept.
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  #43  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 07:03 PM
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Hey Barry, you had mentioned that Coniston Greens are very easy to find and there were more for sale then say Arles Blue not counting the even rarer color then the blue, British Racing Green.

From both eBay and Autotrader, totals were listing from all of the US.

Arles Blue SW + ST = 8

Coniston Green SW + ST = 10

Both colors are close even though there are less blues. More people are keeping the greens over the blues. Also, 3 of the blues were SW and 3 of the greens as well.
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  #44  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 07:07 PM
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  #45  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DefenderPilot View Post
Hey Barry, you had mentioned that Coniston Greens are very easy to find and there were more for sale then say Arles Blue not counting the even rarer color then the blue, British Racing Green.

From both eBay and Autotrader, totals were listing from all of the US.

Arles Blue SW + ST = 8

Coniston Green SW + ST = 10

Both colors are close even though there are less blues. More people are keeping the greens over the blues. Also, 3 of the blues were SW and 3 of the greens as well.
I don't get these numbers?

BTW, all SWs had white roofs so that's not anything special.

If you want SW numbers here are the numbers for 97: http://www.lrfaq.org/Defender/FAQ.De...der_97D90.html

Green happens to be the highest number produced.
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  #46  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 09:06 PM
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George, no offense intended, but why the pissing match with Barry over the number of Connie Green trucks? That color green is very traditional, very British. Obviously you like the green, and that's great, if they made 200 more or less than blue, do you really care?

What's for sale today is not a broad scientific study of popularity, and I've noticed that over time there is an ebb and flow of trucks for sale in various colors.

Drive it and enjoy it.
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  #47  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 09:37 PM
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Did anyone every go to the 1997 LA Autoshow and remember it? Here is the Defender LR showcased for the public. It would be cool to hear from someone if they did go and remember how it was? Out of all the colors in their arsenal, they choose Coniston Green / White SW for the show!
Are you sure that is the 97 auto show? Truck looks a bit ratty to be brand new and the white lettering on the tires is ghetto not to mention it has mud terrains which only came on trucks in 94. I would think they would use a green for sure though since it was such a common wagon color.

As for the soft tops, the cage used in america was used in a few markets not just on the 92 SV. I can't find the link but there were special trucks for France and the middle east to name a few markets that used the cage. The molds for it have long been destroyed so there is a finite amount of cages. Now wagons may be more rare by your numbers in America but as far as collect-abilty there is nothing special that can't be reproduced on these trucks. The soft tops are diminishing and their values reflect that. KBB might tell you that SWs are worth more but if you look at real numbers based on places like Copley you will see that STs command the most. Year is always going to be 97 commanding the most. If you go just by color it is black and blue retaining the highest values. Condition obviously is a factor as well. Blue is rare as it was only made the one year. Green is a very identifiable color and probably why they made so many of them. It isn't a bad thing it just means the truck isn't rare here.

When I think of these trucks from a collectors standpoint I think most will agree that a soft top is the iconic NAS model followed by the 93 110. If Customs suddenly let all ROW trucks in, the STs would be safe. Sadly all the green wagons would tank.

Well I shouldn't say that. Your truck is pretty special being automatic.
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  #48  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by specops1526 View Post
I don't get these numbers?

BTW, all SWs had white roofs so that's not anything special.

If you want SW numbers here are the numbers for 97: http://www.lrfaq.org/Defender/FAQ.De...der_97D90.html

Green happens to be the highest number produced.
Oh I was on that site and missed the part with the color production break down. Thanks!

------ Follow up post added November 23rd, 2011 08:30 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by founD90 View Post
George, no offense intended, but why the pissing match with Barry over the number of Connie Green trucks? That color green is very traditional, very British. Obviously you like the green, and that's great, if they made 200 more or less than blue, do you really care?

What's for sale today is not a broad scientific study of popularity, and I've noticed that over time there is an ebb and flow of trucks for sale in various colors.

Drive it and enjoy it.
No its not like that at all. I posted about the 97 Green SW on eBay which the seller was the same one that had the mint black ST which sold. I didn't like it when he was saying negative things that were not true like there being more ST then SW and all along with other stuff. It not nice to rain on someone like that and post things that aren't all true but im not not upset at him or anything. I have the window vents that I bought from him so Ill just take them off and stomp on them a little before putting them back on j/k. I guess I just became a Defender after it all!
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  #49  
Old November 23rd, 2011, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DefenderPilot

No its not like that at all. I posted about the 97 Green SW on eBay which the seller was the same one that had the mint black ST which sold. I didn't like it when he was saying negative things that were not true like there being more ST then SW and all along with other stuff. It not nice to rain on someone like that and post things that aren't all true but im not not upset at him or anything. I have the window vents that I bought from him so Ill just take them off and stomp on them a little before putting them back on j/k. I guess I just became a Defender after it all!
There were more STs than SWs produced but STs are still more collectible.
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  #50  
Old November 24th, 2011, 01:09 AM
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I would toss your steering wheel in the trash but that goes against my hoarding mentality.

I guess I wasn't clear but I think Brian summed up my thoughts on it. You live to close for us not to get along. Move to Maryland and then we can argue.
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  #51  
Old November 24th, 2011, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bjf View Post
Are you sure that is the 97 auto show? Truck looks a bit ratty to be brand new and the white lettering on the tires is ghetto not to mention it has mud terrains which only came on trucks in 94. I would think they would use a green for sure though since it was such a common wagon color.

As for the soft tops, the cage used in america was used in a few markets not just on the 92 SV. I can't find the link but there were special trucks for France and the middle east to name a few markets that used the cage. The molds for it have long been destroyed so there is a finite amount of cages. Now wagons may be more rare by your numbers in America but as far as collect-abilty there is nothing special that can't be reproduced on these trucks. The soft tops are diminishing and their values reflect that. KBB might tell you that SWs are worth more but if you look at real numbers based on places like Copley you will see that STs command the most. Year is always going to be 97 commanding the most. If you go just by color it is black and blue retaining the highest values. Condition obviously is a factor as well. Blue is rare as it was only made the one year. Green is a very identifiable color and probably why they made so many of them. It isn't a bad thing it just means the truck isn't rare here.

When I think of these trucks from a collectors standpoint I think most will agree that a soft top is the iconic NAS model followed by the 93 110. If Customs suddenly let all ROW trucks in, the STs would be safe. Sadly all the green wagons would tank.

Well I shouldn't say that. Your truck is pretty special being automatic.
Im not certain and was hoping that someone that was there may shed light on the picture. I do know it's from an auto show though but maybe another one or maybe a later one?

KBB and Nada are very reputability sources while not perfect they do market checks on cars. Nada even more for specials cars since they work on niche and classics more then anyone. In the case of a loss most insurance company use these agencies as a guide. Aside from that, there are a lot of STs to choose from on eBay and Auto Trader. When you look on eBay now, the most expensive truck is at 63k asking which is an 97 SW. If you look at completed listings, you can see one ROW SVX SW which sold for 46k and that black 97 ST that sold for 86k. The market is otherwise near dead on both SW and ST due to more then likely economic issues. Heck I posted the link to a very nice 94 yellow ST. That a look at that car it looks very nice and only 23k and taking offers. There are other nicely priced STs as well. While that green SW did not meet reserve, It most definitely had someone that was willing to pay more then what the black ST had sold for. In edition, the seller is also desiring more money for it as well, over his own ST that he had sold. I just went to Coplys website and found to 97s that are very close with one Coniston Green SW 33k miles and one AA Yellow ST 34kmiles so they are great to compare each other to. The green SW was 4g more at almost 59k. How about Adventure Motor Cars, even there he has 1 97 SW for 63k with 53k miles.

Im not going to humor the ROW speculation but here is one easy point that you may have missed. It takes only a few hours for pros to remove a hard top and change doors into an ST with basic tools or vise verse. If the demand was enough even cages would be made much the same way ECR is redoing the safari roof racks. These cages were bent and made by hand like how race shops make roll cages to desire. Once ECR or Safety Devices or maybe some other shop see fit, they will then mandrel bend and fabricate cages for everyone. For now you can get the improved updated cage that comes on the SVX as an option. While I have seen NAS STs go from ST to SW and that's how maybe gages come up for sale, I have not heard any NAS trucks let go of there hardtops as of yet in favor of ST here in the US.

------ Follow up post added November 23rd, 2011 10:12 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjf View Post
I would toss your steering wheel in the trash but that goes against my hoarding mentality.

I guess I wasn't clear but I think Brian summed up my thoughts on it. You live to close for us not to get along. Move to Maryland and then we can argue.

Haha! You should see the stuff I have hoarded! I bet if we have a hoard off ill beat you!
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  #52  
Old November 24th, 2011, 11:50 AM
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[QUOTE=DefenderPilot;312260]

Im not going to humor the ROW speculation but here is one easy point that you may have missed. It takes only a few hours for pros to remove a hard top and change doors into an ST with basic tools or vise verse. If the demand was enough even cages would be made much the same way ECR is redoing the safari roof racks. These cages were bent and made by hand like how race shops make roll cages to desire. Once ECR or Safety Devices or maybe some other shop see fit, they will then mandrel bend and fabricate cages for everyone. For now you can get the improved updated cage that comes on the SVX as an option. While I have seen NAS STs go from ST to SW and that's how maybe gages come up for sale, I have not heard any NAS trucks let go of there hardtops as of yet in favor of ST here in the US./QUOTE]

Maybe you are new to this, but you really know nothing about the ST cage or switching back and forth between a SW and a ST. Yes it can be done but it isn't some easy task that anyone just does because they are bored. On the board most people who want to trade from a SW to ST have to add mucho cash to trade parts. People who want to trade from a ST to a SW always have people beating down their doors. If you search there are always people wanting to go from one to the other. There is one guy I know looking now and he has had no luck.

As for the SVX cage I am not sure what makes you think it is an improved upon cage. All it is bent metal tubing that is huge and even though I like it, most don't. The cage is also not nearly as practical as a NAS cage. The top is much harder to fit and the way that truck was set up you have the spare tire for a back seat. I have seen the back modified to have people sit in it but it isn't great.

ECR talked to SD about the original cage an it is just too costly to remake it. The foam molds is what makes it special. SD makes something like it now but no foam. As I said because of this it makes the soft top more desirable.

As for your mythical green wagon, the owner saw the ST went for big money so he figured it was time to up what he wanted. Someone bid but as we both saw it didn't sell. Now short of you telling me it was you bidding I am still not convinced it wasn't a shill bid.

Look I like wagons, they are nice but you have your head in your ass about them being worth more than soft tops. Maybe you are finding individual cases but overall unless you are talking red or willow green the ST is more collectable and will in the long run be worth more. Everyday they make more wagons. The NAS ST is long gone.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving
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  #53  
Old November 24th, 2011, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bjf View Post



Maybe you are new to this, but you really know nothing about the ST cage or switching back and forth between a SW and a ST. Yes it can be done but it isn't some easy task that anyone just does because they are bored. On the board most people who want to trade from a SW to ST have to add mucho cash to trade parts. People who want to trade from a ST to a SW always have people beating down their doors. If you search there are always people wanting to go from one to the other. There is one guy I know looking now and he has had no luck.

This was what I already said. People want to go SW over ST for its many benefits. When you can buy a nice STs for low twenty, since they sold so many of here, you just buy an ST and be done.

Yes SD does make a nice NAS style cage which is especially the same.

http://www.safetydevices.com/expedition/products/roll-cage/Land+Rover+Defender+90+-1983-present/294/#!prettyPhoto

With a cage available like this you can go ST very easily. People can do what work needs to be done to fit this in and go ST. Ahhh but the foam impact. They make auto console that look OEM, aside from the cup holders, from the same OEM supplier. If there was a demand high enough foam impacts can be made again this is not complicated. They put men on the moon but foam molds can't be made again I guess.


Quote:
As for the SVX cage I am not sure what makes you think it is an improved upon cage. All it is bent metal tubing that is huge and even though I like it, most don't. The cage is also not nearly as practical as a NAS cage. The top is much harder to fit and the way that truck was set up you have the spare tire for a back seat. I have seen the back modified to have people sit in it but it isn't great
You think the NAS cage is a thing of beauty? When I first saw it I thought it was homemade ad on. It looked very similar to the cage on my gardeners Toyota pickup.

"I am talking purely from an aesthetics standpoint."

Take a look a this profile and tell me this SVX is not the hottest ST ever made!

Quote:
As for your mythical green wagon, the owner saw the ST went for big money so he figured it was time to up what he wanted. Someone bid but as we both saw it didn't sell. Now short of you telling me it was you bidding I am still not convinced it wasn't a shill bid.

Did you click on the bids and see it was the same bidder changing his bid? Stop being foolish! You never go and investage things before your rebuttals. You feel you automatically know the answer and don't want to accept if its correct or not. The fact is that SW had a buyer that was willing to go 95k+ and it may have already sold after auction if they both were able to agree on a price through outside communication. Unless there is another truck out there I don't know about, this would be a recorded offer!


Quote:
Look I like wagons, they are nice but you have your head in your ass about them being worth more than soft tops. Maybe you are finding individual cases but overall unless you are talking red or willow green the ST is more collectable and will in the long run be worth more. Everyday they make more wagons. The NAS ST is long gone.
None of this was about me getting a rise on on trying to prove if the SW is worth more then ST, you turned it into that on your own. I only wanted to show that the truth is that the values are far more silamlair then you are leading your self to believe. They varied are based on color, year, mileage , condition. When I compared two cars of the same quality they were both close in price and it just depend on other factors on which was more then the other. I also look at some of the sold cars on the sites and even those were simalir as well. I went through many sites and dealer inventors investigating this all. You have difficulty believing or accepting some things. Just like in regards to the 95k+ SW on eBay, you refuse to accept reality that someone out there was willing to pay big bucks for it! I have seen a lot of your replys and what you tend to do is make a reply then if its shown not to be correct you then back track and go ohhh I had though this or I had though that which is why I said this. You do that a lot. You let your Pride reply for you!

I definitely own an ST one once im ready to. Can't wait for that day to come!


Have a nice Thanksgiving as well and to all enjoying the show! hehe
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  #54  
Old November 24th, 2011, 05:43 PM
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George, you think the NAS ST cage looks home-made? Really? Have you actually seen one?

Start a new thread, with a poll to see who would pay more for a SW. I had both at the same time for three years, loved them both, but they are two different trucks with different purposes, at least in my mind. We used the SW as a daily driver and the ST is a weekend and trail and adventure truck.
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  #55  
Old November 24th, 2011, 06:07 PM
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This was what I already said. People want to go SW over ST for its many benefits. When you can buy a nice STs for low twenty, since they sold so many of here, you just buy an ST and be done.

Yes SD does make a nice NAS style cage which is especially the same.

http://www.safetydevices.com/expedition/products/roll-cage/Land+Rover+Defender+90+-1983-present/294/#!prettyPhoto

With a cage available like this you can go ST very easily. People can do what work needs to be done to fit this in and go ST. Ahhh but the foam impact. They make auto console that look OEM, aside from the cup holders, from the same OEM supplier. If there was a demand high enough foam impacts can be made again this is not complicated. They put men on the moon but foam molds can't be made again I guess.


You think the NAS cage is a thing of beauty? When I first saw it I thought it was homemade ad on. It looked very similar to the cage on my gardeners Toyota pickup.

"I am talking purely from an aesthetics standpoint."

Take a look a this profile and tell me this SVX is not the hottest ST ever made!
You are funny. You know so much. I am glad there are some new people on the board to teach me things. I mean if you didn't join I wouldn't know that the oval didn't come around the land rover logo on the 95 and 97 steering wheel.

At least when you are responding to me try to quote me correctly. I never said people want wagons over soft tops. I said there is an equal amount of people who are looking for something different. SW to ST or ST to SW. I said when this happens people always want the soft top parts. The wagon parts are not in high demand and hence it is much more money to go make a SW into a ST. Not the other way around.

The cost to remake the soft top cage would be a lot more for safety devices than to make some plastic to put around your auto shifter.

I know you think you know everything but the cage you posted isn't even the same regardless of the foam. I know you are eager to be an expert. At least try to do a bit more research. Do you even understand the underpinning of the cage on a NAS truck?

Whether the NAS ST cage looks like something from your gardener's truck is besides the point. It is still something that at this point can't be replaced with new.

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Originally Posted by DefenderPilot View Post
Did you click on the bids and see it was the same bidder changing his bid? Stop being foolish! You never go and investage things before your rebuttals. You feel you automatically know the answer and don't want to accept if its correct or not. The fact is that SW had a buyer that was willing to go 95k+ and it may have already sold after auction if they both were able to agree on a price through outside communication. Unless there is another truck out there I don't know about, this would be a recorded offer!
Do you no how many times I have bid for people where they ask me to bid a few times before the reserve is met just to get it going.

Since the SW is worth much more in your opinion than a ST you should strike while the iron is hot. Sell your common 97 now before the market is floaded with ROW trucks and buy that super sexy SVX.

At least with that truck you can't buy all the parts to recreate it (cage, decals, etc) unless you can prove to land rover you own one of the limited numbers. You probably already knew that though since you are an expert.

I need to let this thread die because you know too much and the quoting is making me tired. Enjoy your green wagon. I will know if i see one driving around in LA it is you because odds are being how rare it is who else could it be.
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  #56  
Old November 24th, 2011, 06:23 PM
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George, you think the NAS ST cage looks home-made? Really? Have you actually seen one?

Start a new thread, with a poll to see who would pay more for a SW. I had both at the same time for three years, loved them both, but they are two different trucks with different purposes, at least in my mind. We used the SW as a daily driver and the ST is a weekend and trail and adventure truck.
Hello Scott, Yes a bit of an exaggeration considering the circumstance but my point was that while it may do the Job it was not a point of beauty when they built them. I have seen some STs in person and one that was apart and the foam does make it look better. If you look at the newer STs like in the SVX, aesthetics play a much larger roll. The hood front end and interior and the roll cage was built to look better and of a higher quality then in the past. Maybe some don't care for it but I really notice fit and finish in things and really like it. Unfortunately a Poll won't be accurate when your using a pool of individuals that have are from the 255% of the ST owners base by sales volume vs the minority of the sales in regards to the SW. It also won't change what the market is actually showing, I have show a lot of date on that part already and when you can buy a nice yellow ST with 94k miles for around 20k something is not right. The economy im sure is having an impact.

I agree with you that SW is better for daily use then the ST but the SW can also be used as a weekend trail and adventurer truck as well. Yes, there is definitely and element of fun when you take the top down on a trail with the ST but there is also some negatives to consider as well like the weather, the damage to the interior parts which are getting harder to find and other things to consider as well but those might be all worth it to see things in the wide open for some
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  #57  
Old November 24th, 2011, 07:05 PM
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George-there is a huge difference between the NAS ST cage and anything else in the world. SVX comes closest. That said, have you ever seen one up close? Or a UK ST conversion? The tubing is so different. The NAS cage is totally unique. If you think it's so easy to replicate, call Mike @ ECR and ask him. He's not recreating as much as paying top dollar for NOS that is available in very short supply.

SW popularity probably has more to do with practicality rather than desirability or collectibility. ST is loud(er) and leakier, and probably gets beat up easier because of exposure. Might explain why there are more ST that are inexpensive.

Bottom line is I think you have to move on. Different strokes bro.
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  #58  
Old November 24th, 2011, 08:47 PM
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Hello Scott, Yes a bit of an exaggeration considering the circumstance but my point was that while it may do the Job it was not a point of beauty when they built them. I have seen some STs in person and one that was apart and the foam does make it look better. If you look at the newer STs like in the SVX, aesthetics play a much larger roll. The hood front end and interior and the roll cage was built to look better and of a higher quality then in the past. Maybe some don't care for it but I really notice fit and finish in things and really like it.
I should never have started with you since you know so much and it is hard to pull one over on you. I really only started this debate with you based the fact that the green truck would never in a million years be worth what the black one is worth and when it comes to collectability (is that even a word) the ST is always the better bet. Daily drivers and trucks that are used and abused really don't count for this argument.


I would disagree that when they made the cage they did not take looks into account. You are clueless to how much work went into it and how hard it is to make something like this. You talk about soft tops that are newer than the NAS truck There has been only one official soft top since and that is the SVX truck. It was made in 2008. There was also a special edition for the middle east but it was made after 2008 and is essentially a SVX. The SVX is a nice truck but that has more to do with the fact it is a new puma and not a soft top. In fact the cage on that truck is a huge downgrade. If you ever read reviews, the styling is very polarized. People either love it or hate it. The top leaks and it is much harder to put on than the NAS top. Again all it is is bent metal which can be reproduced. You might be hung up on how pretty the new dash is and the hood but as far as a soft top it is a downgrade.

I am also sure that if you offered any NAS SW owner a new puma wagon they would jump at the chance to have it. I am not sure the same could be said for all the soft top owners.

------ Follow up post added November 24th, 2011 05:49 PM ------

Oh and if you are curious to some of the limited edition defenders out there. Look at this

http://aebergon.perso.neuf.fr/Land_R...Land_Rover.htm
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  #59  
Old November 24th, 2011, 09:13 PM
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I would think a 97 black ST, then a 97 BRG ST, then the 97 Arles.
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  #60  
Old November 24th, 2011, 09:19 PM
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I actually think the brg is the least desired color of 97. There always seems to be a glut of them for sale with low miles. They do go for decent money but there is no shortage of them always for sale.
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Are there shocks that I can addjust up and down like my friends LX460? That would be very cool!
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