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  #1401  
Old July 27th, 2014, 01:28 AM
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Since I am the guy that contacted the EPA and asked the questions I will just say this. Frank posted the response I received to some very clear questions that people seem confused about with respect to engine swaps. His answers where very clear as to how the EPA currently interprets THEIR rules. I have posted these responses before in the what's legal thread and other forums and we went round and debated them at the time. As I see it unless Will gets them to change the way they interpret the rules what Frank posted above us the way it is. We can debate and argue about it as much as we want but those are the rules direct from the people who are responsible for them. Like them or hate them it doesn't matter that's what they are. If you have a 300tdi or TD5 in any truck here in the US you should be looking over your shoulder. Period.

With respect to chassis and rhd to lhd conversions google vin tampering. I am on my phone so no link but the rule basically say you cannot change out, modify or tamper with any component that carries a vehicle id. If you do it's vin tampering. That would cover the frame and brake booster bracket on import trucks. I am not going to argue about what people do or have done or what their chances are of getting caught. That's up to you but the rule is simple. Mess with or replace an id bearing part at the fed level and you are guilty of vin tampering. Yes many states let you do it supposedly but fed trumps state. It's all about you tolerance fir risk.

I hope Will does manage to get some of these interpretations and enforcements balanced and defined because then we can stop debating this mess and know clearly what is and isn't legal. If you want to do something that breaks the rules after that then at least you will be doing so with a clear understanding of what you are doing.

Ymmv


Edit: Vin Tampering Code:


Title 18, United States


Code (U.S.C.), Section 511


This covers VIN Tampering and it says in part:


Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers
(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part.


Change the Frame or remove the Brake Booster Bracket as part of a Drive Side Swap and you are tampering with/removing the VIN as far as the Feds are concerned.
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  #1402  
Old July 27th, 2014, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
How many were taken in the original raid at Aarons last year?

-Jeff
That would answer that question. Must be on the warrant served last year at his old shop.
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  #1403  
Old July 27th, 2014, 04:28 AM
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Why would an import not become a US Spec truck at 25/21yrs? It meets the guidelines to become a US registered vehicle meeting importation requirements and according to the US Spec outlined by the usdot and EPA is legal for import just like any NAS vehicle produced outside the us and imported in under the "current" rules ie a new range rover. They still clear customs and importation guidelines similarly but on a large scale. Thus once legally in the us it becomes bound to us rules. Like any nas vehicle.
Does this not make sense? It's all in the wording. Not that it makes td5's any more legal.
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  #1404  
Old July 27th, 2014, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleT View Post
Why would an import not become a US Spec truck at 25/21yrs? It meets the guidelines to become a US registered vehicle meeting importation requirements and according to the US Spec outlined by the usdot and EPA is legal for import just like any NAS vehicle produced outside the us and imported in under the "current" rules ie a new range rover. They still clear customs and importation guidelines similarly but on a large scale. Thus once legally in the us it becomes bound to us rules. Like any nas vehicle. Does this not make sense? It's all in the wording. Not that it makes td5's any more legal.
Simple answer = waivers.

The 21/25 yr imports do not meet (safety) or have not been tested (EPA) to say they meet US regulations. They are granted waivers from the regs that allow them to be imported and driven here. In the case of the EPA they have stated that waiver to be conditional and can be voided by changing the vehicles configuration. NAS trucks imported by the manufacturer are built to, tested and certified as complying to US regulations do not require waivers.
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  #1405  
Old July 27th, 2014, 08:52 AM
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Importing a truck

So in relation to this atrocity, how "dangerous" is it to import a truck? Especially an ex-mod through Witham?
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  #1406  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by newbie View Post
So in relation to this atrocity, how "dangerous" is it to import a truck? Especially an ex-mod through Witham?
The only way to buy a truck from Witham is to use Uncle Doug's services.
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  #1407  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:05 AM
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Thanks for the response Rocky. Now how much is that going to cost me? That Series iii in Tampa or the one here in Charlotte are looking better all of the time - except they aren't diesels...

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2014 07:08 AM ------

All of this just chaps my behind by the way. What, our government doesn't have anything better to do? Safety is the issue huh? Hogwash! What about the clunker Chrysler Dodge junk running around? Or the pintos gremlins etc still on the road?
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  #1408  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:20 AM
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  #1409  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newbie View Post
All of this just chaps my behind by the way. What, our government doesn't have anything better to do? Safety is the issue huh? Hogwash! What about the clunker Chrysler Dodge junk running around? Or the pintos gremlins etc still on the road?
Regulating international commerce is what the govt does, always has. Don't have to like that, and fear not it doesn't appear to be getting in the way of not passing a budget, frivolous lawsuits by Congress, rambling a about possible impeachment, and the like.

Of course we are talking an executive branch entity which means it's all Obama's fault.

In reality it's our fault-one cannot rub the govt's nose in sidestepping their rules for years without consequence. Skyline guys know this, Mini as well. There is a reason government boils down to the legitimate control of violence-if that doesn't work for you, you can try to change it I suppose.

Within the system you can try to change the laws but you are fighting big automakers & big $$$.

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  #1410  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mongosd2 View Post
My 2nd question may not really be import related but does also relate to the 21 year exemption. I own a Land Rover Defender 90 that I am going to be refurbishing. This vehicle was originally imported by the manufacturer and sold new here in the US in the 1994 model year. In 2 years’ time it will be 21yrs old and I am considering changing the engine on this vehicle also. Again I understand I can fit a US engine the same age or newer with its emissions equipment intact. Can I however fit a non-type approved engine of a similar type to the ones above as the vehicle will now be exempt? I know the older 200TDi engine cannot be fitted.

If you change the engine to a different engine than what it was originally manufactured with then it would no longer be a certified configuration and you would be manufacturing a new configuration (new motor vehicle) and would require the vehicle be certified to current EPA Federal emission standards. This would also fall under engine tampering.




David C. Hurlin
URS, Contractor
EPA Imports Line
Imports Group
Compliance Division
Phone: (734) 214-4100
Fax: (734) 214-4676
2000 Traverwood Drive
Ann Arbor, MI 48105


Please call and debate this with the EPA, not me, 'cause I'm just looking to cover my A$$...

Frank,
Your EPA question/answer clearly states that every NAS truck with a Tdi conversion is guilty of engine tampering, correct?


.
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  #1411  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Scottyoh View Post
The request for warrant of these vehicles claims 51 to be found imported before they were 25 years old. Why was the warrant only for 40? What about the other 11?

Also, I'm curious what drivetrains were in the returned vehicles.
they already had them from the original seizure.

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2014 09:46 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
Frank,
Your EPA question/answer clearly states that every NAS truck with a Tdi conversion is guilty of engine tampering, correct?


.
David is a nice guy and is quoting the boiler plate. He's not even an EPA employee. He's a contractor. Epa has no enforcement staff to chase down the millions of engine swaps that aren't legal in this country ea year, they happen in virtually every brand and model of vehicle from Porsche's to hyundai's,they have far larger fish to fry (think factory smoke stacks etc). They rely on state emmissions testing to hold folks in compliance. If you ask, they have a contract person who will answer your email, David. There is no enforcement of epa's rules beyond importation. Mongo is playing devils advocate.

I think Will would prefer there was no conversation here about what was under the hoods of the returned trucks since a lot of peoples fates are more important than a few people here's morbid curiosity.
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  #1412  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
Frank,
Your EPA question/answer clearly states that every NAS truck with a Tdi conversion is guilty of engine tampering, correct?


.
It would appear that way - though I'm honestly not confident that the response of "you would be manufacturing a new configuration (new motor vehicle)" if the motor is changed in a NAS vehicle is correct. You change the motor, and all of a sudden it's a "new" manufactured vehicle? Isn't that DOT's jurisdiction anyhow?

Now...keep in mind, as we've all see - government certainly can make mistakes . Unless they call sending essentially an 10-man SWAT team to Dannyboyupstate's parents house at 8am (after doing surveillance on them), pounding on their door demanding to know if they have any firearms, instructing them to come out, seizing Danny's truck after insisting it's a "2000" model year, and then subsequently admitting they shouldn't have taken it (since it was an '83) and now dropping the vehicle back off is not a "mistake".
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  #1413  
Old July 27th, 2014, 09:56 AM
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This topic is getting interesting and I had a feeling that it was going to find its way into this thread. However, the appropriateness of the topic is questionable.
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  #1414  
Old July 27th, 2014, 10:04 AM
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This really does belong in the what is legal thread or somewhere else.
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  #1415  
Old July 27th, 2014, 10:39 AM
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Why is asking a question that is 100% about the topic not appropriate? This thread runs the gambit from legal trucks to dogs humpiing so why question this?

Ya, playing devil advocate and seeking info, plus some clarity on the subject at hand...
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  #1416  
Old July 27th, 2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by newbie View Post
Thanks for the response Rocky. Now how much is that going to cost me?
Price of importing a Land Rover 110 into US
  • Import advice from Bill Cox - $2000
  • International calling phone bills to work your own deal based on Bill Cox's advice - $230
  • Mainland UK transport cost to Port: $750
  • RORO shipping to US port: $4500
  • Customs fees to CBP: $800
  • Shipping fees to Charlotte from Port: $650
  • Used bulkhead to replace undisclosed and non-repairable rot: $700
  • Frame repair due to undisclosed rot: $1400
  • 300 TDI head gasket failure repair - $1700
  • NC vehicle registration and titling - $150
  • Grief from significant other about the POS you just imported (quantified in USD): $10,750
  • Storage and legal fees for CBP seizure of your "84" 300 TDI: $4500 (sorry, you missed Will's pro bono window)
  • replacement 1996 Toyota Camry DD in 2 tone paint with 3 hubcaps sold by illegal immigrant that is upgrading his "ride" - $5600 cash (punto!)

Price of importing a Land Rover 110 into US using Dividing Creek Imports
  • Priceless $$$
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  #1417  
Old July 27th, 2014, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
The only way to buy a truck from Witham is to use Uncle Doug's services.
For the forum record and everybody reading this is purely opinion. Lots of companies import vehicles without issue. Doug is very experienced an has had lots of success and can tell you fairly accurately what the CBP is letting happen and what they aren't. There are other companies that do the same thing, too.
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  #1418  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:03 PM
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For the forum record and everybody reading this is purely opinion. Lots of companies import vehicles without issue. Doug is very experienced an has had lots of success and can tell you fairly accurately what the CBP is letting happen and what they aren't. There are other companies that do the same thing, too.
Importation is a small piece of what we do, but thanks for the input Matthew.

With exmod purchases we send a pre-purchase inspector out and he not only inspects the truck but we have done enough of these that they let him drive them as well so we know synchro's aren't toast and there is no bearing whine etc. He fill's out a multi point inspection checklist form so the customer can choose from the trucks inspected and make an informed decision, as opposed to getting the next truck in line which is how Witham's salesmen prefer to sell them to you. If you contact Witham's and ask about someone to use to handle
inspection,transport to the docks,Uk military vehicle export customs, security filing, ocean freight,and US import they give you one name, mine. I'm not aware of anyone else offering the same packaged service.
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  #1419  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:08 PM
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Ok.. Then let's rephrase that...

Given the current turmoil with the importation of land rover defenders you would be best advised to go with someone who has done many of these vehicles successfully and is up to date with the current hurdles and problems..and if push comes to shove, has an in with the legal team currently litigating the ambiguously written and enforcement of said laws...and that person is UNCLE DOUG.. And we should support our people on this board who are aiding in getting this unfair targeting of our "group" resolved..
There..that's better..

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2014 12:11 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
It would appear that way - though I'm honestly not confident that the response of "you would be manufacturing a new configuration (new motor vehicle)" if the motor is changed in a NAS vehicle is correct. You change the motor, and all of a sudden it's a "new" manufactured vehicle? Isn't that DOT's jurisdiction anyhow?

Now...keep in mind, as we've all see - government certainly can make mistakes . Unless they call sending essentially an 10-man SWAT team to Dannyboyupstate's parents house at 8am (after doing surveillance on them), pounding on their door demanding to know if they have any firearms, instructing them to come out, seizing Danny's truck after insisting it's a "2000" model year, and then subsequently admitting they shouldn't have taken it (since it was an '83) and now dropping the vehicle back off is not a "mistake".

I'm not quite sure why the "manufacturing a new vehicle " bit isn't clear.. The vehicle is a gas engine v8 nas truck....if you change the engine to a diesel it is no longer that model of vehicle.. You are changing it to a different model. (Or in legalese for the sake of clarity/confusion.. Manufacturing.(.you don't have to be a big factory to manufacture)..As far as I know they NEVER made a diesel NAS truck... Bottom line is this...if the vin deciphers that the truck was built with X then unless it has x in it then it is no longer that model it was built as and must be something else..CBP just want to make sure that you are importing what you are saying your importing...
Most people on here own a house here... Your legal address is the block of land it sits on..that never changes..it ise vin..and is on public record that said address/vin is --insert description here--.the foundation is the frame... It may have started out as a single story 2 bedroom house that you want to convert to a 8 bedroom mansion.. If you change the foundation/frame it is no longer what is on your tax records..You can bet your bottom dollar it is going to be governed by someone and controlled what can and can't be done to that foundation and once changed after completion..taxed higher and public records updated that it is now-- insert new description here--If you change the vin you change your address and it s a new house...and then the Feds can't find where you live ..
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  #1420  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottyoh View Post
That would answer that question. Must be on the warrant served last year at his old shop.
No it would not

And it was not eleven what they had at certain bonded storage facility somewhere " and to quote what they told someone I know very well " in a back road in VA
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