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  #1381  
Old July 26th, 2014, 10:52 PM
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Frank Rafka
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No shit, it happens in most classic car circles…just that using a US spec'd vehicle as an example isn't the best idea. When you, as the importer sign the paperwork, you agree to a certain set of guidelines, and as a buyer, even from a dealership, you should do the research to understand that there are different rules pertaining to the truck. Rules for modifying imports are different from the rules for modifying a US Spec'd truck.

Is it right, I'm not gonna start that argument…

Edit, Maybe I'm bouncing a couple of different directions, let's limit this to the vehicle status when it's imported...
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  #1382  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:06 PM
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Please post a link to information that shows an import can not be modified once here.
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  #1383  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:14 PM
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Simple...Will = Defender of Defenders
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  #1384  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:25 PM
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It's not clear what the guidelines are for once the vehicle is here according to DOT/NHSTA or any state DMV regarding safety issues. Once again I'm not going to debate that because this conversation is about what is legal to import. If the frame swap was done once it's here, I'd save all the receipts and document the process with photo's

However it is clear from the EPA on what you can do once the vehicle is here. This came from the EPA and go ahead and ask him (EPA guy) for clarification. This info has been posted in the past…

From: Hurlin.David@epamail.epa.gov [mailto:Hurlin.David@epamail.epa.gov] On Behalf Of Imports@epa.gov
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 05:12
To:
Subject: Re: Rules regarding Imported Vehicles?

Ian Gregory,


My 1st question regards what I can do with the imported vehicle once it is here in the US and legally titled and in use. I understand that from the EPA point of view the vehicle will be issued an exemption from emissions rules based on being older than 21 years and that its original engine type is OK even though it’s likely not to be a US type approved engine as it is covered by the exemption. I also understand that if I want to change that engine once the truck is here for a US Approved engine then I may do so as long as the new engine is approved for use in a vehicle sold here in the US, is the same age or newer than the vehicle and I transfer any emissions related equipment as well. The question is whether I can fit a non-type approved engine to the vehicle as it is considered exempt from the rules being over 21yrs? A Non-type approved for example would be something such as the Land Rover 300TDi Diesel or TD5 Diesel engines that were fitted to later models that are not yet eligible for import. A 2nd part to that question would be if the new engine itself was over 21yrs old but still not type approved? An example for that would be the Land Rover 200TDi Diesel engine fitted overseas from 1989.

If the vehicle is at least 21 years old (the age of the vehicle is determined by subtracting the calendar year of manufacture from the calendar year of importation). If the calendar year of manufacture is unavailable, the importer may substitute the model year or year of first registration. For instance, to qualify in 2001, the vehicle must have been manufactured in 1980 or earlier. The vehicle must be in its original unmodified configuration. Vehicles at least 21 years old with replacement engines are not eligible for this exemption unless they contain equivalent or newer EPA certified engines. This means that the engine needs to be a direct replacement (original replacement engine from the OEM) or an after market engine that was built to be identical to the original engine.

If a vehicle is imported under this rule and you change the engine to a different engine than what it was originally manufactured with then it would no longer be exempt under the age exemption and you would be manufacturing a new configuration (new motor vehicle) and would require the vehicle be certified to current EPA Federal emission standards. Once the vehicle is in the U.S. and governed by U.S. regulations then it would fall under engine tampering.






My 2nd question may not really be import related but does also relate to the 21 year exemption. I own a Land Rover Defender 90 that I am going to be refurbishing. This vehicle was originally imported by the manufacturer and sold new here in the US in the 1994 model year. In 2 years’ time it will be 21yrs old and I am considering changing the engine on this vehicle also. Again I understand I can fit a US engine the same age or newer with its emissions equipment intact. Can I however fit a non-type approved engine of a similar type to the ones above as the vehicle will now be exempt? I know the older 200TDi engine cannot be fitted.

If you change the engine to a different engine than what it was originally manufactured with then it would no longer be a certified configuration and you would be manufacturing a new configuration (new motor vehicle) and would require the vehicle be certified to current EPA Federal emission standards. This would also fall under engine tampering.




David C. Hurlin
URS, Contractor
EPA Imports Line
Imports Group
Compliance Division
Phone: (734) 214-4100
Fax: (734) 214-4676
2000 Traverwood Drive
Ann Arbor, MI 48105


Please call and debate this with the EPA, not me, 'cause I'm just looking to cover my A$$...
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  #1385  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
Simple...Will = Defender of Defenders
Defender of all. Because no one knows who is next. Discoverys and Range Rovers with engines other than what they were imported with? Jags with GM engine transplants?
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  #1386  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:28 PM
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Once again, you need to limit this to the IMPORT MARKET, not US Spec'd trucks…
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  #1387  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mongosd2 View Post
Once again, you need to limit this to the IMPORT MARKET, not US Spec'd trucks…
All these trucks are technically imports...unless unbeknownst to me Rover moved operations to the US. I also "frankly" don't believe if I choose to do a galvy frame swap on my '71 IIA...or import an '89 110 and do the same exact swap (here in the States) that it is "ok" to do it on the Series - but laws are being broken if I do the swap (here) on an '89 110.
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  #1388  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriAnn View Post
Series and Defender Land Rovers are like the axe a person has owned for the last 45 or so years. He had to replace the handle a few times and the head once or twice but it is still the axe he has owned for 45 years.
Muck like Triggers new broom:

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  #1389  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:59 PM
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Wouldn't all of this discussion be moot if Rover hadn't made such sh*tty vehicles? Remind me why we like these things again?
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  #1390  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:00 AM
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Was waiting for that…Yes, if you take it literally, but certain vehicles meet US Spec's for importation and are not in question. D1/D2/LR3/LR4/Classics/Sports/Evoque's…

So, take it to the next level, DEFENDER vehicles imported under the 25 YEAR RULE…

And yes, most think people we are nuts to bring in a 25 rust magnet...
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  #1391  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mongosd2 View Post
Was waiting for that…Yes, if you take it literally, but certain vehicles meet US Spec's for importation and are not in question. D1/D2/LR3/LR4/Classics/Sports/Evoque's…

So, take it to the next level, vehicles imported under the 25 YEAR RULE…
Ok I'll bite . Back in 1971, when my Series rolled off the boat into the US there was no silly "25 year rule". Regardless of 'back then', that vehicle is here (as produced for the US market) and needs a chassis (which I have sitting in the garage just waiting to find the "time").

Now say I find the identical 1971 Series in the UK, on original chassis, RHD, etc. I import that other 1971 next week to the US. Being RHD, technically it varies from the original US configuration that was sold (so doesn't qualify for import as identical spec, like the Japanese spec NAS 90s).

You're actually saying I can do anything I want to the chassis on #1, but on Series #2 (once it's here) from the UK I cannot touch the chassis? That is definitely NOT the case.
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  #1392  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:13 AM
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Nice edit after the fact Frank.
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  #1393  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:17 AM
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Nope, I'm talking about the RHD '71 conforming to the rules for it to be legally imported, as it was not produced for the US market. It technically is different from your LHD '71, which was produced for the US market.

Once again, I'm not going to debate what you do with once it's here. I'd say if you do modify the truck after it's cleared customs, I'd keep a very accurate log, with receipt and photo's to document any changes made…


and sorry you missed my edit…

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2014 12:18 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_lucas View Post
Nice edit after the fact Frank.
Yes I did edit it and posted why I did…it was way to ambiguous, trying to drive this one direction and not get into the "post importation" debate. While it obviously will come into to play, let's work with known facts about what is considered legal
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  #1394  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_lucas View Post
Nice edit after the fact Frank.
Yes I see he changed it to "Defender". But the reality is the rules don't selectively apply to various vehicles - or more accurately MODELS - differently. You cannot have selective enforcement against just the Defender, but has no bearing on Series trucks (or on a Land Rover, but has no bearing on Toyotas). I specifically used Series as an example because that drives home how absurd it is...no one in their right mind could look at that example and see it as factual. Especially those of us that drive Series trucks .

But if anyone can point me to the law that states a Defender (or any import for that matter) cannot have its chassis changed once it enters the states as an import under the 25-year rule I'll gladly eat my words.

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2014 12:27 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongosd2 View Post
Nope, I'm talking about the RHD '71 conforming to the rules for it to be legally imported, as it was not produced for the US market. It technically is different from your LHD '71, which was produced for the US market.

Once again, I'm not going to debate what you do with once it's here. I'd say if you do modify the truck after it's cleared customs, I'd keep a very accurate log, with receipt and photo's to document any changes made…


and you sorry missed my edit…

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2014 12:18 AM ------



Yes I did edit it and posted why I did…it was way to ambiguous, trying to drive this one direction and not get into the "post importation" debate. While it obviously will come into to play, let's work with known facts about what is considered legal
Ok let me hit this head on - please point me to the documentation that states one cannot change the chassis on a vehicle imported under the 25-year rule (such as the RHD 1971 Series in my example).
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  #1395  
Old July 27th, 2014, 12:54 AM
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Please point me a direction that say's I can…This also starts running into "Ships of Thesesus" as to when does a vehicle lose it originality?

Once again, we don't know anything beyond the original seizures and secondary search warrant, on which some discrepancies were found and it appears Will has made some headway into the frame swap issues in the US. My question would be are any of the vehicles "Q" plate trucks, or vehicles modified in the UK, then immediately shipped over without a current MOT/V5? And if that is the case, do the trucks meet the eligibility requirements for importation to the US?

Do you seriously think you can find a '71 series that has a original frame?

Just debating the facts here instead of breading beagles…
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  #1396  
Old July 27th, 2014, 01:02 AM
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My '71 currently sits on its original frame (barely), Galpins '66 is on original (and in good shape), Jonesy has had several Series on original frame, Pedro too. Of course, I don't know anyone that owns a Series (or Defender for that matter) that doesn't plan a galvy swap or wouldn't want one .
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  #1397  
Old July 27th, 2014, 01:05 AM
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withya, I've seen a couple here in AZ on original frames…have yet to see one from the UK thats not cheese cloth…
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  #1398  
Old July 27th, 2014, 01:10 AM
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So technically if an NAS defender cant have an engine swap because its engine tampering and classifies as a new motor vehicle configuration then most land cruisers are in fact illegal if they have had a different engine in them, because they are imported by the manufacturer from japan, as well as most tuners.
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  #1399  
Old July 27th, 2014, 01:12 AM
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The request for warrant of these vehicles claims 51 to be found imported before they were 25 years old. Why was the warrant only for 40? What about the other 11?

Also, I'm curious what drivetrains were in the returned vehicles.
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  #1400  
Old July 27th, 2014, 01:16 AM
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That's one or two of the million dollar questions...

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2014 01:23 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbee View Post
So technically if an NAS defender cant have an engine swap because its engine tampering and classifies as a new motor vehicle configuration then most land cruisers are in fact illegal if they have had a different engine in them, because they are imported by the manufacturer from japan, as well as most tuners.
Read the email again, it clearly states that it's based on engines used in IMPORTED trucks using the 21/25 year rule.

NAS/ USSpec'd trucks fall under different rules for engine swaps and there is tons of info on that topic and while the email addresses some of that, I not going to get into NAS trucks. Maybe some other sole can speak with more knowledge about it
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