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  #1361  
Old July 26th, 2014, 10:37 AM
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genie90
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Jay Geaney
1994 D-90 ST #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post

Certainly there is a point where your chassis is replaced with a galvanized puma chassis and all new parts where it is no longer a "common" practice. It is not common to have a completely restored vehicle with all new parts.
Exactly. This is no longer a restoration and is now a restomod, which is commonplace in the American muscle car scene... Not sure why this would be illegal.
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  #1362  
Old July 26th, 2014, 10:45 AM
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Dave Lucas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
Certainly there is a point where your chassis is replaced with a galvanized puma chassis and all new parts where it is no longer a "common" practice. It is not common to have a completely restored vehicle with all new parts.
http://ghostworks.yearone.com/1969-mail-order-camaro/

http://www.classicindustries.com/pro...s/3196963.html

http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/ford_models2.html
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  #1363  
Old July 26th, 2014, 10:47 AM
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Teriann Wakeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willh View Post
TerriAnn,

This is something that I've had to explain to the government. I've had to shift my focus to an entirely different point of view to understand the government's case. They honestly have been operating under the impression that things like waxoyling and galvanizing frames are things that "unscrupulous" people do to "hide" the origins of these vehicles. When I explained that these were common practices meant to preserve the vehicles, I flipped their whole understanding/paradigm of these practices on their heads.



If that part of your discussions comes up again you might want to mention that there are a lot of Series Land Rovers in the US that were imported into the US by Land Rover that have galvanized replacement frames under them. Since Land Rover imported these vehicles in the 50s, 60s and 70s the owners are not trying to hide their identity. To series owners the fame is just a part that you replace when it gets damaged or too rusty. Just like any other part on the vehicle.

Bottom line is that Series and Defender owners consider the frame to be just another bolt on part that gets replaced when it is no longer fit for safe use.

Here's a silly question. What does customs think when they see a Series truck being imported that has a replacement galvanized frame? The very newest of the Series III Land Rovers were built in 1985 so there can not be any younger than 25 years of age.

Series and Defender Land Rovers are like the axe a person has owned for the last 45 or so years. He had to replace the handle a few times and the head once or twice but it is still the axe he has owned for 45 years. Series/Defenders are a collection of parts held together with nuts and bolts. When any part is no longer fit for use you just unbolt it and bolt a replacement part on. There is no single part that you can look at an say this is the identity of these trucks. These trucks have a collective identity which just might be the greatest number of parts bolted together at any one time. Unfortunately that is all about to cease in new vehicle production. Once the Defender as we know it ceases production the replacement will likely have a unibody that you can point to and say this is the identity of the vehicle.

My hope is that when all is said and done this seizure will be good for the Defender community. If it is it will be because of your actions and the support that others have given you.
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1960 Land Rover Dormobile, The go anywhere class B RV
1961 Triumph TR3A. Life is too short not to drive a classic British roadster.


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  #1364  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:01 AM
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Chris
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I was out at a Toyota dealer today. They had a number of Tacoma/4runner chassis there.
Guess Toyota is still dealing with their chassis rot problems.
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  #1365  
Old July 26th, 2014, 11:09 AM
javelinadave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
I was out at a Toyota dealer today. They had a number of Tacoma/4runner chassis there.
Guess Toyota is still dealing with their chassis rot problems.
Just like a gun manufacture I'm sure the auto manufactures have a method of reporting serial number swaps (as in SN tagged frames) to their respective agency. You send a defective pistol back to Glock, Colt, etc and they send you a different serial numbered frame and inform the ATF about new SN and promise them that the old frame has been destroyed. Toyota will do the same with the rotted out frames with their controlling agency. Pity the end user can't use the same procedure that Toyota enjoys. Once again big brother doesn't trust the very people that pay their salaries.
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  #1366  
Old July 26th, 2014, 01:05 PM
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Ron Dade
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Wow! I'd read the initial happenings on day 1 and had set aside until day before yesterday, when I decided to catch up. After hours of reading the thousand plus posts, I had the following observations:

- We can be quite effective, as a group, when we're not bogged down in all the sniping/name-calling BS

- The sane posts are quite educational (Hope CBP/ICE officers really do read this stuff)

- Lastly, I'm proud to be part of a group of folks that are so willing to help one another (regardless of one accusation otherwise)...WillH, you're the bomb (hope use of that word doesn't stir up an investigation by ATFE); you really should drink free for life. Please do keep us updated on the outcomes from all this.

: thumb::t humb:
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  #1367  
Old July 26th, 2014, 01:07 PM
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Raub A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
Do you have the numbers on how many of these were TDIs?
Still holding out hope that people will lose their trucks I see.
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  #1368  
Old July 26th, 2014, 01:08 PM
the rover shop
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shayne young
89,93 & 95 camel trophy 110s 06 130
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Yep... I think its safe to say Will will never want for drinks at club meets, information for his trucks..or parts either for that matter....on behalf of every defender owner... I thank you..
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  #1369  
Old July 26th, 2014, 02:18 PM
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Daddymow
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Raub A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the rover shop View Post
Yep... I think its safe to say Will will never want for drinks at club meets, information for his trucks..or parts either for that matter....on behalf of every defender owner... I thank you..
Well said and ditto!
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  #1370  
Old July 26th, 2014, 02:34 PM
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He'd be a good recipient for the truck being built if Kent does happen to get his truck back.
He appears defender-less in his profile.
(actually just took a second look, not sure what "caretaker" means.
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  #1371  
Old July 26th, 2014, 03:15 PM
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Chris
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WillH "Defender of the Faithful. "
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  #1372  
Old July 26th, 2014, 03:30 PM
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Luis Constantin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
WillH "Defender if the Faithful. "
Defender of the Faithful.
Fixed it for you.
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  #1373  
Old July 26th, 2014, 03:39 PM
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Chris
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Originally Posted by LuisC View Post
Defender of the Faithful. Fixed it for you.
Ditto.
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  #1374  
Old July 26th, 2014, 06:38 PM
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Matthew Greenspan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
Still holding out hope that people will lose their trucks I see.
I don't think anybody is hoping people lose their trucks. I think there are some people that are very skeptical that this is just about some mixed up VINs.
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  #1375  
Old July 26th, 2014, 07:07 PM
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Arlo
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Kurt Ohlendorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriAnn View Post



If that part of your discussions comes up again you might want to mention that there are a lot of Series Land Rovers in the US that were imported into the US by Land Rover that have galvanized replacement frames under them. Since Land Rover imported these vehicles in the 50s, 60s and 70s the owners are not trying to hide their identity. To series owners the fame is just a part that you replace when it gets damaged or too rusty. Just like any other part on the vehicle.

Bottom line is that Series and Defender owners consider the frame to be just another bolt on part that gets replaced when it is no longer fit for safe use.

Here's a silly question. What does customs think when they see a Series truck being imported that has a replacement galvanized frame? The very newest of the Series III Land Rovers were built in 1985 so there can not be any younger than 25 years of age.

Series and Defender Land Rovers are like the axe a person has owned for the last 45 or so years. He had to replace the handle a few times and the head once or twice but it is still the axe he has owned for 45 years. Series/Defenders are a collection of parts held together with nuts and bolts. When any part is no longer fit for use you just unbolt it and bolt a replacement part on. There is no single part that you can look at an say this is the identity of these trucks. These trucks have a collective identity which just might be the greatest number of parts bolted together at any one time. Unfortunately that is all about to cease in new vehicle production. Once the Defender as we know it ceases production the replacement will likely have a unibody that you can point to and say this is the identity of the vehicle.

My hope is that when all is said and done this seizure will be good for the Defender community. If it is it will be because of your actions and the support that others have given you.
I totaly agree.

It's the paperwork that holds the VIN.
Any other part can be changed into a new one, even the frame.
New frames from England doesn't have any VINs.
But you can ask to stamp your original VIN onto it.

No problem at all.
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  #1376  
Old July 26th, 2014, 07:10 PM
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Jimmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
I don't think anybody is hoping people lose their trucks. I think there are some people that are very skeptical that this is just about some mixed up VINs.
I think some people want to say "I told you so".
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  #1377  
Old July 26th, 2014, 07:30 PM
discotdi
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Todd Miller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
I think some people want to say "I told you so".
Yep!
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  #1378  
Old July 26th, 2014, 08:19 PM
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mark kellgren
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willh View Post
TerriAnn,

This is something that I've had to explain to the government. I've had to shift my focus to an entirely different point of view to understand the government's case. They honestly have been operating under the impression that things like waxoyling and galvanizing frames are things that "unscrupulous" people do to "hide" the origins of these vehicles. When I explained that these were common practices meant to preserve the vehicles, I flipped their whole understanding/paradigm of these practices on their heads. Same goes for the reasons doors are replaced (rotting doors) and roofs are replaced (cosmetics of smooth vs. ribbed roofs). I personally do not hold galvanizing to be a "modification" of the frame. It doesn't require altering or replacement of the original, it's simply a coating or varnish, if you will.

I'm very glad to have a dialogue established with the government and I hope things continue moving in a positive direction.
LEGAL:
http://www.quadratec.com/products/56011_03D_T.htm

LEGAL:
http://www.throttledownkustoms.com/framesCJ7.html

LEGAL:
http://www.fourwheeler.com/project-v...-from-scratch/

GALVANIZING? YEAH LEGAL.
http://www.quadratec.com/products/56011_70D.htm


I can do this all day. Blind eye of justice.
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  #1379  
Old July 26th, 2014, 09:34 PM
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Frank Rafka
01 D2 96 D1 83 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
Or a blind eye to the fact that those are for US Spec'd vehicles, not imports…while its stupid, the rules are in place to keep scumbags from throwing a body off a 2010 wreck on a galvanized frame and then using a vin plate from a rusted and rotted out 1983 that's been sitting in a field, then importing it…

All it takes is one bad apple...

Get it…and hopefully Will can clarify some guidelines to follow where this will not longer be a issue on a original frame...
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  #1380  
Old July 26th, 2014, 09:46 PM
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Wolf Fabrication
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Sterling Archer
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Having been a former Willys/Jeep restorer and builder, the VIN swap / frame swap game is just as if not more prevalent in that community. It's very common to drop older bodies on newer chassis and drive trains.
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