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  #1301  
Old July 25th, 2014, 06:10 PM
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6 of 140 had been incorrectly decoded? What about the other 134?
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  #1302  
Old July 25th, 2014, 06:12 PM
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This is just funny…
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  #1303  
Old July 25th, 2014, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
So they have hundreds of agents doing surveillance and teaming together to seize the vehicles but they can't put an hour or two into properly researching the build and registration dates? All easily done from the comfort of your computer. If I was running this organization I would fire the agents running the case.
No kidding. I am all thumbs on a computer and my research skills compare to a 1st grader( maybe on a good day) and I think I could have done better than these buffoons. Makes you sick to your stomach to think about the money wasted.
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  #1304  
Old July 25th, 2014, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
So they have hundreds of agents doing surveillance and teaming together to seize the vehicles but they can't put an hour or two into properly researching the build and registration dates?
At work we call that Ready, Fire, Aim!
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  #1305  
Old July 25th, 2014, 06:24 PM
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Short & Long Term Solution to this mess

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
I guess the bigger question is why JLRNA was consulted on trucks that they have never had anything to do with. Why didn't CBP contact the heritage center directly? What a bunch of amateurs.

-Jeff
I think we are seeing something pretty obvious and something we can all make a difference on to prevent these sort of incidents from escalating (as it this case). The fact of the matter is that Customs is responsible for the import of everything from vehicles to soup to nuts, to well .. everything. They have to be generalists or their heads would explode with the shear volume of knowledge they need everyday

Partial Solution, when you see this happening and can make a meaning contribution it would helpful to all if some contacted them, primarily by letter PDF fax and suggest ways of verifying whats what. If you have the knowledge or know of people who do, take the time to contact and offer some constructive information. You don't need to talk down to them because many are very bright capable people who are only tasked every day with doing their jobs from Land Rovers, to forged aircraft parts, dope, condoms, you name it, what have you. Provide them with the information you feel necessary and contacts that they can contact independently to versify. Actual letters will get more attention that e-mails based on the time you put into communicating . Some might be surprised, sometimes ego is involved and people generally don't like to admits they are not experts in everything. We are in the firearms business and I like to finish off with “.. I hope this is helpful” I am not playing with them when I say they as I realize I am dealing with intelligent people for the most part, but I also recognize we are experts in specific fields, and try not to jam it down their throats

You might be surprised with the results

The long term solution to these seizures is work as a group and try to get utterly meaningless restrictions on Rovers off the books so, you will not be torched and Customs will not have to waste its time running after vehicles that are perfectly good, perfect safe from first world countries like Britain. The root of the problem is in directionless bureaucracy and not Customs who are charged with enforcing it, whether the agree with it or not. Get involved proactively before this happens

As for the sometimes heavy handed tactics by others in government that is a job for people just like you and I ; a country off the people, by the people for the people as I said in my first post here that I was compelled to write after reading the story, Get involved or accept what ever is dumped your way
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  #1306  
Old July 25th, 2014, 06:48 PM
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Christopher,
In theory it's a good idea. In reality they don't care what anybody has to say other than whatever guidance they get from their boss or their bosses boss.
I work in a very federally controlled industry. The primary agency that regulates us allows us to 'self police" ourselves with only spot checks by them. If and when they find ANY non-compliance it rains heavy handed feds.
Guys like Uncle Douglas have forgotten more about Rovers than the average customs inspector knows. In a perfect world Uncle Douglas should be able to "self police" what he imports and what he turns away. Because of the bad apples (subject of this thread) that pretend to be professional importers Uncle Douglas isn't allowed to "self police".
Nobody in todays government want's any help and if they want your opinion they will give it to you.
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  #1307  
Old July 25th, 2014, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
OK in your line of work, thats scary.




If you are talking generally, I do that daily here on the site. While i do like to joke arround, you can search my posts and see that i try to offer help, regardless if its been asked 1k times. If you are talking specifically about the Govt, well, you dont live in the real world. I have yet to meet any govt employee open to suggestion regarding what they do or how they do it.

-Jeff
I appreciate what you say and my post was indeed intended generally. I was making an overall comment and not at your expense.

The more we communicate with our regulators the more problems we solve proactively before it reaches a point in which we have to do battle. Battle is necessary if we must, however, having a proactive rapport resolves more problems than it creates. In the firearms business the issues can become huge and very heated. Most many issues are resolved constructively, and fewer need to be resolved in a legal punch up
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  #1308  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
Christopher,
In theory it's a good idea. In reality they don't care what anybody has to say other than whatever guidance they get from their boss or their bosses boss.
I work in a very federally controlled industry. The primary agency that regulates us allows us to 'self police" ourselves with only spot checks by them. If and when they find ANY non-compliance it rains heavy handed feds.
Guys like Uncle Douglas have forgotten more about Rovers than the average customs inspector knows. In a perfect world Uncle Douglas should be able to "self police" what he imports and what he turns away. Because of the bad apples (subject of this thread) that pretend to be professional importers Uncle Douglas isn't allowed to "self police".
Nobody in todays government want's any help and if they want your opinion they will give it to you.
I fully agree with you that there are people like that and a Battle Royal is the only solution and in some cases how we get bad regulations off the books, or consequences for civilian servants who clearly overstep. There will always be people like that, no getting around it. CBS 60 minutes as an example is full of good stories on this

I find when we try to be constructive, we resolve some matters, while in other cases our initial approach also puts us in a better position when we bump into civil servants with a very high degree of recidivism ! In this case they will go for it and so will we! Hooah!
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  #1309  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
As far as I can tell, DOT and EPA have been copacetic...isn't the current enforcement problem / mistake-prone agency the DHS?
US Customs enforces EPA and DOT's rules @ points of entry. That said no-DOT contradicts themselves regularly.
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  #1310  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post

US Customs enforces EPA and DOT's rules. That said no-DOT contradicts themselves regularly.
sad.
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  #1311  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
6 of 140 had been incorrectly decoded? What about the other 134?
Aaron only ever imported 110 vehicles. Where is your 140 coming from ?
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  #1312  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Aaron only ever imported 110 vehicles. Where is your 140 coming from ?
Didn't the document originally posted say they found three additional Defenders to somehow come up with 114? 110+3=114
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  #1313  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
US Customs enforces EPA and DOT's rules @ points of entry. That said no-DOT contradicts themselves regularly.
I like what Sec Def Robert Gates said to President Obama when the President was elected and kept Gates on; Mr. President, somewhere right now there is someone in the US government screwing up as we speak"!

The fact of the matter is that many in the government make it work more often than it doesn't or we would really be in a mess. In any large organization it is unavoidable to "have all manner and condition of men and women". And the really dumb ones can really burn your ass!

Gates also went on to say after many years in government (applies to other places, not only Washington). "Washington is the only place I know if where you can walk down lovers lane and see someone holding their own hand"
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  #1314  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Didn't the document originally posted say they found three additional Defenders to somehow come up with 114? 110+3=114
That's exactly what it said. Of course, I chuckle every time I realize it's not "113". Guess JLRNA did the math for them as well.
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  #1315  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Didn't the document originally posted say they found three additional Defenders to somehow come up with 114? 110+3=114
Oh yeah forgot that neat little government math twist. Still not understanding these 140 and 160 numbers that keep getting thrown out
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  #1316  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Aaron only ever imported 110 vehicles. Where is your 140 coming from ?
Ok. 110. Who cares what the number is. Were they all incorrectly decoded VINs? The vast majority here keeps jabbering about how JLR is at fault. Six vehicles were returned and the bandwagon that everybody is jumping on is this is all one gigantic misunderstanding. I thought the original number from the beginning of this stupidly long thread full of ridiculous opinions was 140. 110. 160. 60. 40. Six were returned. What's the story with the rest?
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  #1317  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:38 PM
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Six so far, which includes most of the ones they were saying were truly "newer" vehicles. There are others that don't look right in the list with registration date before or too close to the build dates. I'm sure there are other errors.

There is one there they state as being two weeks too new to import. Going to the trouble to seize a vehicle because of two weeks out of twenty five years of age is insane.... Fine the importer and call it a day for something like that. I little common sense and reality is in order instead of spending millions of your tax dollars.
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  #1318  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriAnn View Post
Granted it would be helpful if the US and Canada had the same regulations for importing vehicles and there would be 10 years less rust on those original frames.

However I think it would be more important to fix the uneven criteria customs uses to determine if a vehicle is legal to import. As consumers we rely upon customs to make sure that the imported items we purchase are in this country legally.

Buyers who are not Land Rover Defender enthusiasts have no way of knowing that a td5 Defender that is registered within the US is not legal to own. Heck prior to this thread I just assumed one could take a 25+ year old Land Rover, reframe it and upgrade the engine then legally import it into the US. I just assumed that all you needed was documentation showing the vehicle age and the work done to the vehicle. I knew VIN swapping was a big red flag no no but assumed that fixing up a 25+ year old vehicle and upgrading the engine before it was imported was allowable if the exporter had the documentation and presented it to customs.

I think the first thing we need is a clear, concise readable set of guidelines that determines what is acceptable to import. Something that allows a person to identify the year of the Land Rover and spells out what modifications and upgrades that are not allowable. Then the guideline needs to be issued to and used by customs to determine if a Land Rover is legal to import.

If each port of entry used the same criteria for determining if a vehicle is legal to import and if the criteria was widely known we would not have enforcement people running around legally stealing people's vehicles. The big problem is that neither customs nor consumers know how to tell legal vehicles from a vehicle that is not legal to import.

This whole mess is really a customs agency problem. Their mistakes cause innocent people who thought they were purchasing a legally imported vehicle to be punished. How come customs is not responsible for their own mistakes? And why doesn't it appear that customs is working to correct the flaws in their processes?

Any such guideline should be readily available to consumers in the market for an imported ninety or one ten. And hopefully well known enough that a seller can state that the vehicle was imported in compliance with guideline document XYZ.

Illegal vehicles will continue coming into the US and be purchased by people who assume the vehicle is legal until such time as customs fixes their own processes and have a consistent way to identify legal to import vehicles. Go after the root cause and not the symptom.

I am in agreement all day long with the views expressed by TeriAnn. If you have spent anytime around federal rules and regulation (or unions) you see this type of thing often. Poorly written guidelines being enforced and the people who pay for these mistakes are the ones on down the line. The arm is taken off before seeing what can be done to mend it - taking ten fold in time, manpower and funding. These regulations need to be rewritten so they are unequivocally understood by all, leaving no room for differences in interpretation or need for debate. The regulators and entities entrusted by us should be held accountable for their errors, just as they hold us accountable for ours. It's a frustrating thing to watch because it could have been avoided if done correctly in the first place. It is a cluster and now the innocent have to defend themselves for being victims. Again.

My deepest appreciation to Will for stepping in to help minimize the damage caused to these citizens by their own government.
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  #1319  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:42 PM
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Basically, as I understand it... When these were imported, customs was given the registration information that showed first date of registration, which was between 24 and 25 years and THEY allowed them in. If that is the case, they should not have the right to seize them now.
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  #1320  
Old July 25th, 2014, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Basically, as I understand it... When these were imported, customs was given the registration information that showed first date of registration, which was between 24 and 25 years and THEY allowed them in. If that is the case, they should not have the right to seize them now.
Are you a US or Canadian citizen?
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