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  #1041  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TeriAnn View Post
It appears to me that they are referring to any vehicle within the US that gets a new frame. The statement is just ambiguous enough that I'm not sure the regulates refer to all vehicles of just to vehicles located outside the US.

The earliest MoD Wolf Land Rover has several more years to go before it hits 25 years of age. And being a law abiding citizen I would never want to do anything illegal or that might be construed as shady. But the Wolf specs include a reinforced frame that is much stronger than the civilian frames plus stronger axle assemblies.

My thought is to bring in a rolling Wolf frame and reframe a vehicle that is legally inside the US but has its original rotting frame. I'm just trying to asertain if I could bring in both a legal one ten two door or high capacity pickup that has a rusted out frame and brought in a rolling Wolf chassis that is less than 25 years old, then reframed the truck with the rusted frame inside the US with documentation, would it still be a legal to own the vehicle in the US.

It was the statement that said if you reframe a vehicle it must be registered as the year that you reframed it. Which would make it less than 25 years old. I guess I get confused easily since I usually don't deal with a vehicle younger than 50 years old.
Gotcha now. The DOT opinion letters are from the Import Enforcement Branch and statements made in these opinion letters apply to vehicles and their legality when they hit the docks, or border crossings for importation into the US, not what happens after. What you propose would be completely legal.
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  #1042  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
You can find the answer on another thread...go research...or alternatively bug someone else with these Q in emails off the thread - OR BEST OPTION ----> Ask the person you are going to use to do the import.
Thanks. I'll tell my buddy to do the research.
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  #1043  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriAnn View Post
I caught that part when it first came through. I got this as well. But what thew me was this message: It appears to me that they are referring to any vehicle within the US that gets a new frame. The statement is just ambiguous enough that I'm not sure the regulates refer to all vehicles of just to vehicles located outside the US.
Teri Ann and ECR,

There appears to be some confusion in so far as I think you all may have misread the letter. Go back and look at the NHTSA letter again. It does not say that frame replacement is OK. You still have to use the original frame. What it states is that full body replacement is OK under the rules.

As Doug stated, the NHTSA rules only apply to the vehicles at the time they hit dock. Once the vehicle is cleared by US Customs and released to the owner, the controlling area of law changes. Most laws pertaining to chassis replacement falls to the individual states.
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  #1044  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Willh View Post
Teri Ann and ECR,

There appears to be some confusion in so far as I think you all may have misread the letter. Go back and look at the NHTSA letter again. It does not say that frame replacement is OK.


Yup, I need to stop skimming and read more in detail.
I'm going to shut up now and listen/read.
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  #1045  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:35 AM
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Not defending DHS, but the surveillance was/is required to not waste agent time serving warrants on empty garages and the assumption is that everyone is armed. Complacency and the assumption that a residence is docile kills. This is SOP no matter the operation or what's being seized. It could have been fake purses or sunglasses.
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  #1046  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:37 AM
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Doug,

For this scenario lets replace Land Rover, Defender, 90, 110, 130, etc. with giant African land snail(this way there is no emotion attached to the scenario to cause people to go nuts about their rights being violated).

A guy imports a bunch of these giant snails, lets say 140 of them. The paperwork says they are Snail-X. Look similar to the giant one, sure, but the paperwork says it isn't a giant African land snail. Customs goes through the paperwork, they look at the snails or don't, whatever. Snails are let into the country. Guy sells snails. First buyers sell snails and so on. Customs finds out later on that this guy was in fact importing giant African land snails and not what he said he was. Customs tracks down all the snails and seizes them. Some buyers thought they had legal giant African land snails because they were already here.

I know it's not a perfect fit for the Land Rovers, but regardless of how many people bought it after it was imported, it is illegal to have according to the law. Even if it was imported as something else and customs let it through they would have to go after it if they found out that paperwork was fudged and it shouldn't have been let through. Even if a guy bought it third or fourth person down the line and it would still have to be taken away from them. Nobody is saying it does not suck that their vehicles were taken away and I'm sure there could have been a way for CBP/DHS to inspect the vehicles, but there are so many possibilities as to what would have happened to all the vehicles if people found out trucks were being inspected as evidence. Quite a few would probably disappear or get sold off and then cause more work or a loss of evidence. Getting them all back as evidence makes sense. It sucks, but it makes sense.

Get off the bit about the manpower money cost. DHS has over 240,000 employees CBP over 60,000. This entire seizure according to the math of 8 agents per vehicle seized was only 300 in one day. So roughly .1% of their entire force. Not a lot of effort. They could do one thousand of these investigations per day theoretically. That's 365,000 of these investigation seizures of the magnitude used for this in a year. There are probably not that many investigations to require that.

People get surveilled all the time by criminals, rapists, thieves, and local and federal government. Only one of those groups does something to stop crimes from happening. Yes in the end does it matter, do imported cars really cause any harm to anybody? Hells no. Do I think you should be able to import any car with whatever modifications, sure as shit it'd be awesome. Do I think the government should enforce the laws that it has set out. Yes and they should be on the same page about it between departments; however, that doesn't mean all laws broken before that are fair game and should be grand fathered in.
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  #1047  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
People get surveilled all the time by criminals, rapists, thieves, and local and federal government.
This is why it pays to be vigilant. I don't care how good they are - no way they would have been able to get away with this on me...and I suspect a few others on here would have smelled something quite quick too.

Complacency leads to apathy.
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  #1048  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
This is why it pays to be vigilant. I don't care how good they are - no way they would have been able to get away with this on me...and I suspect a few others on here would have smelled something quite quick too. Complacency leads to apathy.
Which is why they are good at what they do and it's aimed at people like you, also why they are armed 100% of the time they serve warrants. (That's a compliment, FYI).
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  #1049  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
Doug,

For this scenario lets replace Land Rover, Defender, 90, 110, 130, etc. with giant African land snail(this way there is no emotion attached to the scenario to cause people to go nuts about their rights being violated).

A guy imports a bunch of these giant snails, lets say 140 of them. The paperwork says they are Snail-X. Look similar to the giant one, sure, but the paperwork says it isn't a giant African land snail. Customs goes through the paperwork, they look at the snails or don't, whatever. Snails are let into the country. Guy sells snails. First buyers sell snails and so on. Customs finds out later on that this guy was in fact importing giant African land snails and not what he said he was. Customs tracks down all the snails and seizes them. Some buyers thought they had legal giant African land snails because they were already here.

I know it's not a perfect fit for the Land Rovers, but regardless of how many people bought it after it was imported, it is illegal to have according to the law. Even if it was imported as something else and customs let it through they would have to go after it if they found out that paperwork was fudged and it shouldn't have been let through. Even if a guy bought it third or fourth person down the line and it would still have to be taken away from them. Nobody is saying it does not suck that their vehicles were taken away and I'm sure there could have been a way for CBP/DHS to inspect the vehicles, but there are so many possibilities as to what would have happened to all the vehicles if people found out trucks were being inspected as evidence. Quite a few would probably disappear or get sold off and then cause more work or a loss of evidence. Getting them all back as evidence makes sense. It sucks, but it makes sense.

Get off the bit about the manpower money cost. DHS has over 240,000 employees CBP over 60,000. This entire seizure according to the math of 8 agents per vehicle seized was only 300 in one day. So roughly .1% of their entire force. Not a lot of effort. They could do one thousand of these investigations per day theoretically. That's 365,000 of these investigation seizures of the magnitude used for this in a year. There are probably not that many investigations to require that.

People get surveilled all the time by criminals, rapists, thieves, and local and federal government. Only one of those groups does something to stop crimes from happening. Yes in the end does it matter, do imported cars really cause any harm to anybody? Hells no. Do I think you should be able to import any car with whatever modifications, sure as shit it'd be awesome. Do I think the government should enforce the laws that it has set out. Yes and they should be on the same page about it between departments; however, that doesn't mean all laws broken before that are fair game and should be grand fathered in.
I'm calling you out on a horrible example.

In seriousness Matt that's just it. Looks as though the majority are what he said they were on the paperwork.

Lets do this so you get my angle. I walk into the (locality not important since nothing is more American than John Deere right? ) John Deere dealership and buy a new agricultural tractor for my farm. Years later DHS positions agents, watch me using the tractor to mow fields etc and come banging on my door and take said tractor on a large roll back giving me a warrant saying that when John Deere imported said tractor from India (yep some are built in Japan, some are built in Germany, and some are built in India) they got the import code wrong on the paperwork and US Customs is due a few more cents in duty thus making the entry fraudulent and the tractor contraband. I sue John Deere only to find out John Deere had it right in the first place.
Not only have I suffered damages in the form of loss of use, atty's fee's, embarrassment when my neighbors saw all this, I will also have to pay the contractor who hauled and stored the tractor from my farm to wherever US Customs decides to store it- you can bet it was long distances on some of these. Customs agree's to release said tractor upon being proved wrong (burden of proof on me) but drags ass on the release paperwork causing another two months of storage costs. So a year later I get the tractor back with a $3k atty bill and a $3k hauling and storage bill. Plus the cost of a replacement in the meantime as well as emotional distress and embarrassment when the seizure is carried by the local paper.

You good with that scenario ?
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  #1050  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:06 AM
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The snail comparison..
The snail comparison is a good one except... This guy was selling 2 different kinds of snails.. One illegal and the other not.... The CBP went and seized all of the snails saying they were ALL land snails and making the owner of the snails prove otherwise... Add into it that the so called expert on snails that was consulted by CBP said that all of the snails this guy sold were land snails because this expert also sells snails and wants to protect his upcoming investment of snails to sell... (JLRNA and the upcoming defender)..
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  #1051  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by the rover shop View Post
The snail comparison..
The snail comparison is a good one except... This guy was selling 2 different kinds of snails.. One illegal and the other not.... The CBP went and seized all of the snails saying they were ALL land snails and making the owner of the snails prove otherwise... Add into it that the so called expert on snails that was consulted by CBP said that all of the snails this guy sold were land snails because this expert also sells snails and wants to protect his upcoming investment of snails to sell... (JLRNA and the upcoming defender)..

So I'm not clear on this. Can I legalize my snail import if I put a legal snail shell on an illegal snail, or is shell swapping illegal? Does the original shell have to be on the original snail? What if I bring in legal snails, and illegal snail shells as parts, then swap the illegal snail shells onto the legal snails post clearing customs and then serve them commercially in a fruity French restaurant? Would I be good or risking my small business? If so, should I make my fruity French restaurant an LLC to protect my assets?

I'm so confused. I'm going to start drinking rum, no scotch. F' it, I'm mixing them both in a new drink I call "Swappertunity"
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  #1052  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
This is why it pays to be vigilant. I don't care how good they are - no way they would have been able to get away with this on me...and I suspect a few others on here would have smelled something quite quick too.

Complacency leads to apathy.
Has anyone here caught themselves being watched?
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  #1053  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:30 AM
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Has anyone here caught themselves being watched?
my beagles watch me when I get out of the shower. It makes me uncomfortable. I hate them.
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  #1054  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:33 AM
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my beagles watch me when I get out of the shower. It makes me uncomfortable. I hate them.
Stop taking the peanut butter into the shower! LMAO...
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  #1055  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:40 AM
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So I'm not clear on this. Can I legalize my snail import if I put a legal snail shell on an illegal snail, or is shell swapping illegal? Does the original shell have to be on the original snail? What if I bring in legal snails, and illegal snail shells as parts, then swap the illegal snail shells onto the legal snails post clearing customs and then serve them commercially in a fruity French restaurant? Would I be good or risking my small business? If so, should I make my fruity French restaurant an LLC to protect my assets?

I'm so confused. I'm going to start drinking rum, no scotch. F' it, I'm mixing them both in a new drink I call "Swappertunity"

You do realize that if you start taking shells off snails, they die. Don't you?

But in all seriousness, can we stop using snails as an example and go back to using Land Rover? This is starting to get annoying.
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  #1056  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
Stop taking the peanut butter into the shower! LMAO...
More regulation! If this is the land of freedom and opportunity, why does everyone have to bring me down? I just want to eat a delicious peanut butter infused bug in the shower. But I can't do it without government regulation, K9 enforced surveillance and oversight.

WTF is happening to this country? We need to get back to the old days when this was the land of "swapportunity"
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  #1057  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:45 AM
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So my question is beyond the flawed date data, and apon inspection to confirm the VIN's and they aren't stolen, what happens when they find engines that are in violation of the EPA laws regarding type accepted engines. If you follow the letter of the law, you can import anything you want, but do not break the law until you install it. So I'd be curious as to what happens now that there are several trucks(300tdis'TD5's) in custody that violate the Clean Air Act?
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  #1058  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:50 AM
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Local news in Charlotte NC just ran the below story about Homeland Security taking a Defender 110.

Here is a link to the story:
http://www.wbtv.com/story/26075071/w...ze-land-rovers

http://www.wbtv.com/story/26075071/w...ze-land-rovers


STATESVILLE, NC (WBTV) -
When Jennifer Brinkley saw a line of law enforcement vehicles coming up her driveway last Tuesday she didn't know what to think. "I haven't done anything wrong."

The Homeland Security agents were not there to take her away, they were looking for illegally imported Land Rover Defenders. Brinkley had bought one via the internet last year and had invested more than $60,000 into the rare vehicle.

She thought she had checked it all out and she legally owned it. "They popped up the hood and looked at the Vehicle Identification Number and compared it with a piece of paper and then took the car with them," she said.

It turns out that in recent years some importers have changed the VIN number to comply with import regulations. All vehicles coming into the United States must meet strict safety and emissions standards. Land Rover Defenders, for the most part, do not meet the standards.

But a quirk in the law does allow the importing of vehicles 25-years-old and older regardless of whether the standards are met. There have been cases in recent years where importers have changed the VIN to make the vehicle appear older and thereby allowing it to come into the United States.

Defenders, even ones 25-years-old, will sell at a premium in America. Brinkley says she bought the vehicle online and has been trying to reach the seller but unsuccessfully.

The lawsuit, that has dozens of vehicles listed for seizure, shows the VIN number for her car but a different owner than her. Brinkley has hired an attorney to look into the claims but says the agents who took the vehicle still have not told her where it is being kept so she can check the VIN numbers herself.

A vehicle typically has the VIN number on several locations and all the numbers are supposed to match. If they do in this case, Brinkley says the agents need to relent.

"I want my car back," she said.

She has been given 35 days to appeal the seizure.

Copyright 2014 WBTV. All rights reserved.
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  #1059  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:50 AM
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Local news in Charlotte NC just ran the below story about Homeland Security taking a Defender 110.

Here is a link to the story:
http://www.wbtv.com/story/26075071/w...ze-land-rovers

http://www.wbtv.com/story/26075071/w...ze-land-rovers


STATESVILLE, NC (WBTV) -
When Jennifer Brinkley saw a line of law enforcement vehicles coming up her driveway last Tuesday she didn't know what to think. "I haven't done anything wrong."

The Homeland Security agents were not there to take her away, they were looking for illegally imported Land Rover Defenders. Brinkley had bought one via the internet last year and had invested more than $60,000 into the rare vehicle.

She thought she had checked it all out and she legally owned it. "They popped up the hood and looked at the Vehicle Identification Number and compared it with a piece of paper and then took the car with them," she said.

It turns out that in recent years some importers have changed the VIN number to comply with import regulations. All vehicles coming into the United States must meet strict safety and emissions standards. Land Rover Defenders, for the most part, do not meet the standards.

But a quirk in the law does allow the importing of vehicles 25-years-old and older regardless of whether the standards are met. There have been cases in recent years where importers have changed the VIN to make the vehicle appear older and thereby allowing it to come into the United States.

Defenders, even ones 25-years-old, will sell at a premium in America. Brinkley says she bought the vehicle online and has been trying to reach the seller but unsuccessfully.

The lawsuit, that has dozens of vehicles listed for seizure, shows the VIN number for her car but a different owner than her. Brinkley has hired an attorney to look into the claims but says the agents who took the vehicle still have not told her where it is being kept so she can check the VIN numbers herself.

A vehicle typically has the VIN number on several locations and all the numbers are supposed to match. If they do in this case, Brinkley says the agents need to relent.

"I want my car back," she said.

She has been given 35 days to appeal the seizure.

Copyright 2014 WBTV. All rights reserved.
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  #1060  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:54 AM
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I'm calling you out on a horrible example.

In seriousness Matt that's just it. Looks as though the majority are what he said they were on the paperwork.
According to your limited/unlimited facts or your opinion the majority are exactly what they were represented as on paper? The warrant posted clearly states it doesn't have all the evidence that they have on the entire situation, just enough to get the vehicles into custody. Do you know what the rest of the evidence is and you can say for certain that the majority were what they were represented as on paper?

John Deere, snails, or a 110. The difference is I doubt a legitimate business that actually cares about it's reputation such as John Deere would let your tractor be taken and leave you hanging if they messed it up. John Deere does not equal small business that doesn't care about its reputation only it's short term monetary gain.

And more to the John Deere scenario. Lets say John Deere has been illegally importing tons of tractors to deceive the government. Should all of those be left out? We're not talking about a mixup in paperwork, we're talking a business wide practice to deceive the government to increase financial profits. Does that change your opinion on your scenario?
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