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  #821  
Old July 20th, 2014, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
Preacher speaks and the congregation rises to their feet in a group "Amen." Okay.

1. Do not condescend to someone who is not as fresh faced and innocent to the world of British automobiles as you might think I am.

I have probably forgotten more about MGs and Triumphs than you know. And, it is about someone lying. The trucks have to be original and they need to be 25 years old for entry.

I remember when the Italian Job remake was released. EVERYONE wanted a Mini and unscrupulous importers brought them in in waves. Plenty of 1978/9s were coming in with EFI and airbags. Brand new VIN plates, readily available in reproduction, indicated they were of the cor

2. An erroneous assumption that I have never owned an imported automobile,


Take personal responsibility for what it is that you purchased. Do not blame it on CBP agents at the dock who had no idea what they were looking at and signed off on it.
Jarrod,
1)Quoting the laws to me that I work within daily is childish. Ok you are far more knowledgeable than everyone else here on every subject. Again, the spread sheet used in the warrant is wrong and there were no lies-on the trucks listed on the warrant anyway. Wait for the proof.
2) said you had never imported a vehicle and had no depth of knowledge on the subject. Interesting diatribe though.

The take responsibility part- I'm not sure who you are addressing but I guess you missed the part where none of the listed vehicles were ever cleared @ the docks, Wilmington is a container only port no ro/ro, all of Aaron's containers were selected for opening and inspection and were moved to Cape Fear Warehouse where Customs does there exams for that port. They were never cleared quickly, many took weeks to clear as Customs took their time examining them to decide that the vehicles were indeed eligible for entry, and charged for these "intensive exams". You have an interesting take on a sequence of events not in evidence.

------ Follow up post added July 20th, 2014 01:27 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rover110 View Post
WELL STATED, Jarrod.
:
You own some of the harshest, nastiest, completely unproductive posts in this entire thread.
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  #822  
Old July 20th, 2014, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Willh View Post
THIS.....is why I am doing what I'm doing. I've received a lot of praise for my actions but I honestly do not consider myself to be any different than any of you who've stopped and helped someone pull a broken axle on the trail, or those of you who've driven an hour out of your way to pick up a friend's busted truck on your trailer only to spend the rest of the weekend helping that friend replace a diff so they can get home.
.
Will enjoyed meeting with you today. I'm glad you are enjoying working on this and I hope things go as you envision. Please give me a call Monday when you know more.
Cheers
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  #823  
Old July 20th, 2014, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Will enjoyed meeting with you today. I'm glad you are enjoying working on this and I hope things go as you envision. Please give me a call Monday when you know more.
Cheers
Pleasure was all mine sir! I thank you immensely for your insight. No doubt, I will certainly be in touch. Please enjoy the rest of your weekend and I'll talk with you again soon.
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  #824  
Old July 20th, 2014, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crown14 View Post
Lots of trucks with replacement chassis came in with the lopped off front frame horn from the original chassis that displayed the "VIN"... but two or three owners down the line that big ugly chunk of torch-cut rusty steel provenance is likely gone.
Not totally relevant to thread as this can only be done after import but perhaps helpful down the road.

1. take picture of old frame with truck on it clearly showing VIN#'s on frame and bulkhead.
2. take picture of old frame with truck off it clearly showing VIN# 's.
3. cut VIN# from old frame
4. weld VIN# onto new frame in same location (still taking photos, or if your really clever, video).
5. carry on with good conscience.

Have done this dozens of times at the suggestion of State of Maine DOT. My initial question to them was how to replace a bulkhead on an NAS 90 without "VIN tampering" (having to move the vin plate to the new part). Photo documentation and receipts for parts purchased was all they suggested.

Use this info at your own discretion.
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  #825  
Old July 20th, 2014, 06:13 AM
v8engine
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Rusted out wrecks from UK?

Hi,
Without wishing to upset anyone,over this sensative discussion,which has had huge response, -Dare i ask, is there hope for a way forward to import legally and successfully in the future without too much risk?-kind of getting back to old times of restoring rather than buying in 'High' dollar UK suspect restorations.-Maybe we should be checking out legalities of importing a 'rusted out' wreck of a RHD 90 /110 from UK cheaply,with the documents showing correct vin plate and correct chassis number on front member,all showing 25 yrs old,and rebuilding it legally as a Custom build or Kit,(how do T rods and buckets etc ,get registered in USA with new frames?). Within the framework of the law,maybe even import without an engine,Donor vehicle are available in UK for under $4000,it may still be viable for people, or a business to operate to make this work legally? and then someone ship in new Land Rover replacement chassis legally for the restoration work,(if this is legal) and find/re-make a cheaper source of LHD conversions,(which are a problem to find at least in UK).By buying cheapand unrestored in UK will pose less risk,at least for the time being and could still work out surely?? I think people need reassurance now,or the flow of imported vehicles into USA will be no doubt stop,for fear of seizure.
The wealth of knowledge possessed by USA members on this web site,and the ability to investigate is amazing,i think a lot of you guys know far more than UK Landy owners sometimes,as you are true long distance enthusiasts,who have to amase more knowledge,as you have not got a Landrover dealer in every town to supply parts.Perhaps finding out exactly what can be done legally,in each state,and what cannot be done,and how titles are issued etc ,after vehicles are cleared legally from port of entry,and have this in writting from the relavent DOT/EPA,DMV authorities.I think this would be very helpfull.
Is anyoneup for the challenge,to get the info more clear for the future?
Steve, from the UK
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  #826  
Old July 20th, 2014, 06:37 AM
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UK Steve, This issue of the seizures aside I think that the importation process is working well now for those who stick to the law. The anti-defender Jihad has cleared many things up.

Importation hasn't stopped. The vehicles that are now being allowed in are:

1) CLEARLY 25 year old or older originals.
2) Unrestored & Un-blinged.
3) Un-tamper with VINs, VIN Plates
4) That match the VIN identified body, engine & wheelbase configuration exactly as found in the LR Heritage Center data.

Others here can clarify the level of restoration tat acceptable but the bad old days of exporting blinged out customized <25 year old 110 frames as 2011-2014 Defender ICONs or Prindivilles are over. Those clear violations from the past may even be seized, who knows how deep this will go? No one except CBP's senior management.

I think the Brits visiting the board should give up dreams of exporting for huge profits until this all clears up.
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  #827  
Old July 20th, 2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu Buckwheat View Post
Importation hasn't stopped. The vehicles that are now being allowed in are:

1) CLEARLY 25 year old or older originals.
2) Unrestored & Un-blinged.
3) Un-tamper with VINs, VIN Plates
4) That match the VIN identified body, engine & wheelbase configuration exactly as found in the LR Heritage Center data.
It's not clear though, can a 25+ year defender come in with a different engine than originally placed from factory?

Quote:
Earlier this year he bought one on my behalf and sent it over. I used Doug Crowther from Dividing Creek Imports, he was knowledgable and I'd recommend him...For the geeks in this thread, the vitals are: 87 D90, R380/ 1.2, 3.5L from an old range rover with a newer range rover injection system installed, and the truck has a complete OME suspension underneath. Runs and drives great, goes 75 with a tailwind without revving much, but only goes 48 into that same wind.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...490939&page=78
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  #828  
Old July 20th, 2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFKazzaa View Post
It's not clear though, can a 25+ year defender come in with a different engine than originally placed from factory?
I am not CBP but I imported my 3 cars this year using the four yardsticks listed above and they were cleared off the Ro/Ro in Baltimore ... it took 4 weeks.

Before I even thought about putting them on a boat the order from Doug was to make sure they had the original engine as specified on the VIN breakout. So all came in with dirty rusty interiors in their original body/engine/interior configuration with their 3.5L V8 Stromberg Carb'd engines. I made no modifications until they were in the USA and state registered.

As for your example it would be JLRNA who cleared that engine but if its a 3.5L V8 according to the VIN it may have been acceptable.
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  #829  
Old July 20th, 2014, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFKazzaa View Post
It's not clear though, can a 25+ year defender come in with a different engine than originally placed from factory?
No. That's the part where it has been stated that it should be an original example.
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  #830  
Old July 20th, 2014, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFKazzaa View Post
It's not clear though, can a 25+ year defender come in with a different engine than originally placed from factory?


Earlier this year he bought one on my behalf and sent it over. I used Doug Crowther from Dividing Creek Imports, he was knowledgable and I'd recommend him...For the geeks in this thread, the vitals are: 87 D90, R380/ 1.2, 3.5L from an old range rover with a newer range rover injection system installed, and the truck has a complete OME suspension underneath. Runs and drives great, goes 75 with a tailwind without revving much, but only goes 48 into that same wind.


http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...490939&page=78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpayne View Post
No. That's the part where it has been stated that it should be an original example.
So will these all come under scrutiny from customs then if from other importers, or only the one in North Carolina?
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  #831  
Old July 20th, 2014, 07:46 AM
v8engine
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What is allowed on engine swaps ?

I am concerned as i do not think the laws on just what is allowed in have been as clear as we would like it, in particular the finer details -with engines,thanks to Doug and others input this is now becoming clearer by the minute,however it only needs one customs official not to understand the exacting letter of the law,and it could cost the importer weeks of hassle and un necessary expense,or even a seizure.Frightening ! I have an early 1990 V8 Safari i want to ship over to USA,but have to wait until 2015 to do this.I have checked all the vins and engine numbers and they are all correct.The more information on successfull entries with minimum hassles,and good ports of entry are welcome,and the best way to do it, and the areas to avoid will be better for all concerned at this stage.
I suppose, and hope after all this has settled down legally,the US customs will be just as vigelant, but know which rules fully to apply for themselves and enforce.Hopefully some good will become of all this mess in the end.Clear Clarity.
I agree the days of greedy and heartless UK dealers selling to USA will be pretty much over.However,it will not stop opportunists from still advertising on ebay and similar.So it is even more 'Buyer beware' ! for overseas buyers.(it is not illegal for UK sellers to sujjest that it is possibly suitable for export) as there is no UK government agency that would bother to enforce this,however Vin# swapping is obviuosly illegal here! and people occassionally get prosecuted if they swap vin#'s over to gain Pre 1960 MOT and road tax exemption,for historical vehicle status.(Most noticable when you sometimes see Defenders running around on Pre 1960 licence plates,but in truth, the police don't bother much with this,biggest worry is about invalidating their insurance if ever involved in an accident,then the S--t can hit the fan. And then cops get involved with fraudulant evasion of road tax.
So good experiences of members and there imports aprticulary engine swaps can help.Thanks Guys
Steve UK
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  #832  
Old July 20th, 2014, 07:54 AM
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I would like to share the following document with the community. It is an advisory opinion letter issued by Counsel for the National Highway and Transportation Association. Here is the link:

http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/23894.ztv.html

In particular, I would like to point to the portion of the letter that states as follows:

"Under a long-standing line of interpretations of this agency, the substitution of a new body on a used chassis alone does not result in the creation of a "new" motor vehicle subject to the FMVSS, assuming that the vehicle continues to be titled and registered with its original model year. Thus, under the scheme you outline, the 1967-75 Land Rover with a different body and unmodified chassis could be imported without the need to conform it to the FMVSS."

It appears to me that US Customs has been executing inspection of vehicles in a manner that is inconsistent and in opposition to the actual guidelines it is supposed to follow. Under the interpretation above, replacement of non-chassis components should not render a vehicle ineligible for import under the 25-year import rule.

I'd like to thank Ron Brown (evilfij) for directing me to where I could find this information.
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  #833  
Old July 20th, 2014, 08:12 AM
v8engine
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Interperation of the law.

Thanks Will,this is just the sort of information which i think everybody wants to see,it is helping to define what is allowed in, and what is not.And the more we know the better,anything is very helpfull.
Steve UK
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  #834  
Old July 20th, 2014, 08:15 AM
Abu Buckwheat
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Will, Thank God you joined this forum. I think your assessment is correct about CBP following a different interpretation of the rules but they are driving this train. It will be interesting to see if they go even further after other shady importers and dogy defenders after the NC thing is adjudicated or if thy will make their point here and stop new imports from the UK of clearly silly cars.

I think I am going to write an article on LRO or LRM and ask Brits to police up their Ebay scam artists! Those listings are almost always offensive to anyone who knows what's even remotely legal.

However, I saw a full-on LHD 2012 Puma 110 double cab pickup (Russian mafia limited edition) recently on US streets and after all of the blood sweat and tears it took me to get a dirty old 84 110 into the USA I'd rather see CBP seize the clearly illegal cars that somehow managed to get in.
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  #835  
Old July 20th, 2014, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Jarrod,
1)Quoting the laws to me that I work within daily is childish. Ok you are far more knowledgeable than everyone else here on every subject. Again, the spread sheet used in the warrant is wrong and there were no lies-on the trucks listed on the warrant anyway. Wait for the proof.
2) said you had never imported a vehicle and had no depth of knowledge on the subject. Interesting diatribe though.

The take responsibility part- I'm not sure who you are addressing but I guess you missed the part where none of the listed vehicles were ever cleared @ the docks, Wilmington is a container only port no ro/ro, all of Aaron's containers were selected for opening and inspection and were moved to Cape Fear Warehouse where Customs does there exams for that port. They were never cleared quickly, many took weeks to clear as Customs took their time examining them to decide that the vehicles were indeed eligible for entry, and charged for these "intensive exams". You have an interesting take on a sequence of events not in evidence.
Speaking of childish, I never implied to know more but for you to condescend to explain what an asterisk and what the BL logo looks like was exactly that. The BL logo was the symbol that accompanied everything but a quality product. We used to joke that the Germans had it right to try and sink everything coming out of England. The spreadsheet shows proof enough for them to get the warrant and definitely points to some irregularities in the registration process. Which is probably why they wanted these trucks to further inspect them to verify the possible irregularities.

My "diatribe," as you put it, was to correct your, again erroneous, assumption that I have never owned a non USDM vehicle because it was not a Defender imported through you. I have and it did not prevent me from doing the research to ensure that it was, indeed legal and original enough to be here. That is the personal responsibility I referred to.

You must have some super secret document that goes into exactly what his particular trucks went through/ go through as not a single word of what you wrote actually was in the warrant issued and posted. The "interesting take on a sequence of events not in evidence" seems to be yours really. Since you purport to be the expert of all things imported here, is there some sort of double jeopardy clause someplace that says that CBP cannot realize that mistakes have been made, that laws have actually been broken, and then move to correct them as a part of a larger operation/ investigation?

I will wait for this proof that you seem to have that no one else does. If the judge ends up ruling against CBP and allow all of these vehicles to stay, I will gladly admit I was wrong. I am no "CBP fanboy" but I also cannot hold a grudge against someone who is doing their job. It is like speeding. We all pretty much do it to some degree. I can hardly be angry when I come around a corner and see a cop standing there pointing at me. I rolled the dice, broke the law, and was caught. I see no difference between that and bringing in a truck that is not original, and trying to claim that it is. Again, vilify me all you want but I hardly doubt that I am alone in this. To whine about getting caught with a vehicle most likely powered by a motor that is illegal is hardly grounds for sympathy.
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  #836  
Old July 20th, 2014, 08:47 AM
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As far as the way forward, As Malcolm and others have said, this has been the lay of the land since late 2012. I have cleared approximately 150 trucks since all this began. I picked up a truck @ the docks imported under my ss# and passport# this past week. Yes they took weeks to grant it entry and I had a couple hundred bucks in storage to pay the port authority but I think I'm pretty high profile in this whole thing with Customs and the truck cleared fine. I also cleared 4 other trucks for forum members in the past 10 days so, the light ahead isn't a train.
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  #837  
Old July 20th, 2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willh View Post
I would like to share the following document with the community. It is an advisory opinion letter issued by Counsel for the National Highway and Transportation Association. Here is the link:

http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/23894.ztv.html

It appears to me that US Customs has been executing inspection of vehicles in a manner that is inconsistent and in opposition to the actual guidelines it is supposed to follow. Under the interpretation above, replacement of non-chassis components should not render a vehicle ineligible for import under the 25-year import rule.

I'd like to thank Ron Brown (evilfij) for directing me to where I could find this information.
Will,

I realize this is not a smoking gun but it sure seems to support a large percentage of those affected? At the very least it should prove good faith...

Thanks for your help mate truly!
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  #838  
Old July 20th, 2014, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
The spreadsheet shows proof enough for them to get the warrant and definitely points to some irregularities in the registration process.

My "diatribe," as you put it, was to correct your, again erroneous, assumption that I have never owned a non USDM vehicle because it was not a Defender imported through you.

.
Dude,

Look back, have you added anything to this thread ? You have simply been pissing on others posts and expressing your opinions. Much to the disdain of the forum members whom have been effected. You have done the same on expedition portal. Why are you constantly bristling/trolling for a keyboard fight ? Your complete lack of compunction or consideration for these people is contrary to the general spirit of this forum. We help each other out here.

You have shown who you are, I have done the same. I'm good with that.

Sure I'm an arrogant scot (always willing to back up what I say with proof or physicality, preferably the later) and hold grudges longer than is rational. That's who I am and I own it. I am speaking from a place with far more information on this subject than anyone else (having imported in excess of 500 of these trucks) and used the same port of export as Aaron did, and the same shipping line many times. Ie for several years I interacted with the same people Aaron worked with and have imported a container through the port of Wilmington with a rolling 110 chassis/ and body and the rest of the container full of parts and know EXACTLY what he went through every single time. My container took 6 weeks to clear while the contents were spread out on the Wilmington exam warehouse floor the entire time getting filthy, waiting for Customs to do their thing. So yeah I do have more experience and knowledge on the subject than anyone else on this or other forums on the subject (other than Will @ this point) so you pissing on my posts and casting dispersions is exactly that and nothing more. I drove to North Carolina and spent hours with Will yesterday to share all of that. I am posting factual data and correcting the incorrect, and biting my tongue on plenty. I interact with US Customs daily and have for the past 8 years. Given that these guys operate from a Field Guide on how to operate and handle situations that is largely ignored (can't find a link to it online @ the moment), what I'm posting seemingly has bearing here. US Customs not only doesn't do what they do uniformly from port to port, they don't even use the same forms. Additionally they charge for things they do @ one port and not @ the next. The fee structures are not standardized @ all and vary wildly. This is a must have "local knowledge" business.

The agent in charge of this case is following this thread and is likely your sole fan aside from Steve.

If I take issue with your tone, opinion, or asinine assumptions that's all it is. You feel entitled to behave differently than I and others here think is acceptable but hey this is America and that is everyone's basic right.

Posting that the vin plate uses an asterisk @ each end of the vin and that the chassis VIN has the leyland logo wasn't condescending. It was information as to how Land Rover badged these cars and many here were blissfully ignorant of that fact because most "vin swapped" trucks have an asterisk @ either end of the VIN stamped on the chassis as opposed to the leyland logo (again based by those folks clicking the "thanks" button). The alum plate on the bake booster takes 2 mins to move from one truck to another with a drill and a pneumatic riveter. The chassis stampings cannot be faked, or rather I have never seen it done correctly. What you term my "condescension" was helpful and thanked by many here.

Have you helped anyone in this thread ? I ask because imo that's what this is supposed to be about.

You seemingly have reading comprehension issues or choose to see things not typed. What was said (twice) is that you have never imported a vehicle yourself and have no depth of knowledge on the subject. It was never said you had never owned an imported vehicle, I had seen your posts on another forum about your diesel land crusier, you are waving the yellow card/ foul flag and defending a diatribe on a statement never made.

Being intelligent and or knowledgeable on a subject isn't a license to stomp on the posts or berate these risk adverse forum members who were not a savvy as yourself when shopping for a defender. If you have knowledge, try molifying the stances you continue to take against other posters and try being helpful instead. It will go a long way to changing the tone here.
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  #839  
Old July 20th, 2014, 09:58 AM
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Well said, Sir.
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  #840  
Old July 20th, 2014, 10:13 AM
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I am very sorry for what the owners of the seized rovers are going through.

After reviewing the letter Evilfij directed Will to, and Will posted the link to, I wonder what impact the importation of ROW Rovers as a business has on this situation, based on this bit from the second paragraph of the letter: ....you are "not a vehicle business."....

Have only ROW Land Rovers imported by a "vehicle business" been seized?


Chuck
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