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  #781  
Old July 19th, 2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post

Also , in many states when you register a Historic / Classic car you must sign an affidavit stating " IT HAS NOT BEEN ALTERED, MODIFIED, or OTHERWISE CHANGED significantly from its original state "

I know I know, it is up to perception what significantly means
Most of them have an exception for safety items such as brakes and seat belts:

http://www.dfa.arkansas.gov/offices/...rAntiqueMV.pdf

So, I think I'm ok with my disc brake axle, and I've still got the original one laying around in case some fed decides to imply that it wasn't shipped over in original form. I guess I may keep it in my shed forever instead of recycling it like I had planned.

Also, if at some point I decided to modify it more extensively, I'll just put normal plates back on it.
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  #782  
Old July 19th, 2014, 10:47 AM
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Yes, you're right Jeff. I'll keep my crazy opinions to myself and gracefully bow out of this topic.

It's been very interesting all the same.

Good luck to all the people who need it.

Alan.
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  #783  
Old July 19th, 2014, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
Threads around here rarely get shut down, so quit asking! -Jeff
ok well - at least it's good entertainment. I hope those who unfortunately lost trucks will get some useful info out of it.
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  #784  
Old July 19th, 2014, 12:13 PM
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It is unfortunate that so many downstream owners have lost their vehicles. If CBP has reason to believe that the Defenders entered the commerce of the United States illegally, then they can seize the vehicles on sight without a warrant. Such Defenders are just like cocaine, counterfeit merchandise or Elephant ivory - contraband per se. It does not matter if the present owner purchased the vehicle in good faith. You just can't have it. Unless the vehicle is 25 years old or older and has the PROPER PEDIGREE, you may have problems. Someone else could have falsified the VIN or age of the vehicle without your knowledge. It DOES NOT MATTER if your local DMV has issued a title - the Federal law is the final authority in such matters - PERIOD. Such "roundups" usually precede the filing of criminal charges such as 18 USC 545 (Smuggling) or 18 USC 1001 (False Statements) against the responsible parties. Innocent third parties will never face fines or prosecution. They will just lose their vehicles. There is an appeals process, however. Normally, they will be given the opportunity to EXPORT the vehicle, or if possible, bring the vehicle into compliance. A nightmare for the innocent 3rd party owner.

It's important to remember that CBP is just the enforcement agency. They work with DOT and EPA and other related government agencies with jurisdiction over emissions and vehicle safety, etc. For a historical perspective, you might want to research the "Grey Market" vehicle crisis during the mid-1980's and early 1990's. As an example:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-...39_1_smog-test.

Back in the day, owners could attempt to bring the vehicle into compliance for EPA and DOT. Expensive, but it could be done. REMEMBER - THERE ARE NO NEW EPA/DOT/US SPEC COMPLIANT DEFENDERS. So if the age of a vehicle was falsified, it will NEVER be possible to bring the vehicle into compliance as Jag/Rover have never presented these latest Defenders for testing. There is no benchmark, therefore, such vehicles can never be brought into compliance.

I hope this helps and those who have had their vehicle seized should immediately consult with an attorney with experience in this field.
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  #785  
Old July 19th, 2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dolomiti View Post
Let it go. You innocently posted something on here and because you're not part of the clique, you'll only get douchebag responses. I've owned a land rover for a little over a month and this thread (and a handful of other negative experiences) has turned me off to the land rover "community."
Don't let the negativity in the community turn you off. There is just a lot of anger at the moment and some are just saying things that may be taken out of context. When the dust settles, everyone will be friends again.
I'm not a 90 or 110 owner. But I have been a Rover owner since 98. I still owner my first which was a Discovery and have added to my livery.
I hope there's a Defender in my future.
I've been keeping up with this thread off and on since it's inception several days ago. I, personally, would like to see amnesty issued to the ones already in the US. After all, they give amnesty to all the people that come here illegally.
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  #786  
Old July 19th, 2014, 02:11 PM
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Actually Luis, I'm pretty sure Dolomiti is a troll just looking to stir things up and has never actually been in a Defender muchless own one. He states his location as USA but all the vehicles in his regestry picture are UK tags. Trolls seem to be drawn to this thread like flies to a fresh dog turd.
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  #787  
Old July 19th, 2014, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
Actually Luis, I'm pretty sure Dolomiti is a troll just looking to stir things up and has never actually been in a Defender muchless own one. He states his location as USA but all the vehicles in his regestry picture are UK tags. Trolls seem to be drawn to this thread like flies to a fresh dog turd.
yep, you've got me figured out.
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  #788  
Old July 19th, 2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
Threads around here rarely get shut down, so quit asking!

-Jeff
Which is a good thing, IMO.

Seems like shutting this thread down wouldn't be too different from what happened to Ninetys and One-Tens getting taken out of peoples's driveways. I rather weed thru the thread for the good posts than not have the option to read anything.
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  #789  
Old July 19th, 2014, 03:03 PM
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As for the "clique" that will only give you "douchebag responses" I can guarantee they will be the first ones to pull a u turn cross 4 lanes of traffic to get back to you if they see you are broken down on the side of the road. They will never leave you broke down or stick on a trail. If you are back at camp and have a problem with your truck you will have more skilled hands pitching in to help you to get back running than you know what to do with. It's a community that judging by your ignorant comments you know nothing about. I would however suggest attending some of the many events coming up in the next few months to see for yourself. I don't know where you live as you have not disclosed it but I will be at as many East Coast events as I can attend and would love to meet you in person. I'm not hard to find.
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  #790  
Old July 19th, 2014, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Lots of words
Preacher speaks and the congregation rises to their feet in a group "Amen." Okay.

1. Do not condescend to someone who is not as fresh faced and innocent to the world of British automobiles as you might think I am.

I am all to familiar with the BL hurricane mark of "quality." See, I have been around them all my life. Working on them, working for a shop that specialized in them, owning multiples at one time. I have probably forgotten more about MGs and Triumphs than you know. Probably the same as your Defender knowledge versus me. But it is not about that. It is about what the law states can be allowed in and what cannot. And, it is about someone lying. For you to say that it is not is hilarious. If the exporter/ importer had not lied about the true origin date of the vehicles, or trying to obfuscate the origin/ reasoning of parts (as quoted in the warrant), this would not be happening. The trucks have to be original and they need to be 25 years old for entry. Trucks were coming in in an altered state. Correct me if I am wrong but the 200tdi motors were not installed in 90s/ 110s until 1990. How many 200/ 300tdi powered trucks were coming in? Far more than the proper V8 and 2.5TD, I am sure guessing by the number of threads about parts conversions, etc... I guess little things like that should not matter then right? Frames, motors, transmissions, doors, roof panels, etc… Evil government is evil for enforcing the law. Sure, the initial inspectors can be held liable to a certain degree for not catching everything but one can hardly complain when they do catch on. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Does it suck? Absolutely.

I remember when the Italian Job remake was released. EVERYONE wanted a Mini and unscrupulous importers brought them in in waves. Plenty of 1978/9s were coming in with EFI and airbags. Brand new VIN plates, readily available in reproduction, indicated they were of the correct vintage. Within a year and a half, they were being swept up and the importer no longer exists. Customers were furious and the answer was, “what did you expect?” You were living on borrowed time. Same goes for an MG RV8 that was stated to be a 'highly modified MGB.' This is nothing new.

2. An erroneous assumption that I have never owned an imported automobile, just because it is not a Defender, as made by you.

Thats right. I had (sold to fund my MA) 1983 Land Cruiser BJ60. Factory diesel. What? A factory diesel in this country? Why yes, brought in from BC, Canada, and legally registered in Oregon, then by myself in Virginia. How can that be? Well, the VIN plate on dash perfectly matched the VIN stamped into the frame which broke it down that it was indeed a factory 3B powered truck. All of which matched the motor. Canada slapped a Maple leaf on the door jamb, US CBP signed off and into my hands it came. No lying about frames, power plant, etc... VIN and non conforming vehicles are not restricted to just Defenders. It is evident in the Cruiser world as well. Just like the D90 I was interested in buying, I checked everything out on the BJ60 to make sure it was as it was supposed to be. Not only for repossessions sake, which I have seen happen in the past, but for liability reasons. I can imagine telling my insurance company one thing, getting hit and then having all that blow up in my face.


Take personal responsibility for what it is that you purchased. Do not blame it on CBP agents at the dock who had no idea what they were looking at and signed off on it. They are not Jay Leno types who have an encyclopedic knowledge of every automobile produced. They trusted the paper work that came from both sides of the pond. They figured out they had been had and now have come after those who benefited from their oversight. Complain about that all you want but they are simply doing their jobs. Bottom line is the law was broken and many, many people seem to have been caught. Some, I am sure, were erroneously swept up in guilt by association and hopefully the lawyers will be able to help them out. The ones who had frames swapped, new doors, and updated (like TD5 motors) motors and transmissions can hardly complain. Just as you stated, these are just my observations based on what I have personally seen and what the warrant seems to lay out. If that frame of thought makes me an outcast, so be it (I know I will get no "amens" from this). I doubt I am alone though. I hope that those who had 100% legitimate and original trucks benefit from the great volunteer pro bono assistance WillH offered here. It seems though that many bought trucks they knew were too good to be true and ran the risk. I am not necessarily vilifying the importer, as it seems that it was not just Aaron but others as well. It is as much the fault of those who chose to buy the truck (not personally inspecting it or not asking enough questions here or of the PO) as it is his, the importer. So easy though, to blame someone else.
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  #791  
Old July 19th, 2014, 03:19 PM
dolomiti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
As for the "clique" that will only give you "douchebag responses" I can guarantee they will be the first ones to pull a u turn cross 4 lanes of traffic to get back to you if they see you are broken down on the side of the road. They will never leave you broke down or stick on a trail. If you are back at camp and have a problem with your truck you will have more skilled hands pitching in to help you to get back running than you know what to do with. It's a community that judging by your ignorant comments you know nothing about. I would however suggest attending some of the many events coming up in the next few months to see for yourself. I don't know where you live as you have not disclosed it but I will be at as many East Coast events as I can attend and would love to meet you in person. I'm not hard to find.
Really? I'll have to figure out how to get there from the UK and take off time from my job as a US gov't mole/shit stirrer so I can check out everyone's "defenders" (shouldn't they be 90s or 110s?) since I've never driven or owned one for myself.

As for driving across 4 lanes of traffic, I find that hard to believe based on the lack of help on this forum about some parts questions and several prominent vendors failing to return calls or emails after pretty pedestrian inquiries about parts. This forum alone would dissuade myself (and potentially others) from ever using some of the "importers" participating on here after their assholish responses to rather innocent questions. Why would I pay these jerks $30k to do a job that I can accomplish with a $15k (or less) budget.

I'm pretty active in several other motoring communities (some with rather bad reputations) and have never seen people treated the way I see others treated here.
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  #792  
Old July 19th, 2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dolomiti View Post
"defenders" (shouldn't they be 90s or 110s?)
Seriously. Why does this keep being brought up? It's no different than when ford renamed the 500 to Taurus or when Chevy renamed the Malibu to Classic. They are the same car with the exception of minor things that would have changed over the course of any vehicle that has been produced that long. For example a 1992 defender has a completely unrelated engine to a 2010 defender, but they are still defenders. Not even mk2, etc. Just defender. Heck a 1992 probably shares MORE in common with a 90/110 than it does with a Td5 or tdci.
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  #793  
Old July 19th, 2014, 03:27 PM
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It seems to me Jerrod that the customers who bought these trucks in good faith assumed they were legal as well and were duped just like the poor CBP agents. I doubt that these customers had "an encyclopedic knowledge of every automobile produced." either. And that"They trusted the paper work that came from both sides of the pond." the CBP's paper work included! So you feel the victims in all this should bear all the punishment as well. Sort of like saying the rape victim had it coming to her because she was wearing a short skirt.

And what of these poor little CBP agents that didn't know enough to do their job? Should nothing happen to them? Or the agents in charge shouldn't they bear some responsibility for not ensuring that competant agents were on the job? Shouldn't these people be held accountable as well? Or do you just want to see the victims punished?

------ Follow up post added July 19th, 2014 04:30 PM ------

Dolomiti then why does your location say USA then? Go away troll.
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  #794  
Old July 19th, 2014, 04:42 PM
bigrichmanitoba
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I got a hold of ICE HSI the other day and was able to confirm that all of my VINs were kosher and not on their list. I told the helpful lady that I was calling on behalf of a friend. She sounded hawt!
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  #795  
Old July 19th, 2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
It seems to me Jerrod that the customers who bought these trucks in good faith assumed they were legal as well and were duped just like the poor CBP agents. I doubt that these customers had "an encyclopedic knowledge of every automobile produced." either. And that"They trusted the paper work that came from both sides of the pond." the CBP's paper work included! So you feel the victims in all this should bear all the punishment as well. Sort of like saying the rape victim had it coming to her because she was wearing a short skirt.

And what of these poor little CBP agents that didn't know enough to do their job? Should nothing happen to them? Or the agents in charge shouldn't they bear some responsibility for not ensuring that competant agents were on the job? Shouldn't these people be held accountable as well? Or do you just want to see the victims punished?

------ Follow up post added July 19th, 2014 04:30 PM ------

Dolomiti then why does your location say USA then? Go away troll.
Incongruous comparison is incongruous as in the end, the law is still broken. In this world of Google instant answers, a thread here describing what is legal and what is not, I find it near impossible to understand how someone would not know. You no longer need encyclopedic knowledge as a buyer of a used car. Sites like this and Google make it so that you do not need it. You are flexible in your pursuits, unlike CBP agents who have to follow a rigid set of rules. As for what should happen to the CBP agents? I would say that it has already happened at numerous ports, the 110 crushed in Baltimore shows as much. They now know exactly what to look for and are looking for it. No sympathy for or against them from me. They are simply doing their job. I asked about the BJ60 even though it was cleared by both Canadian and US Customs. I STILL asked the questions knowing that there is as active a bringing in of diesel, non conforming Cruisers and would rather not take the chance. I spent 15 minutes on Mud and figured it out. Sometimes a desire to own can blind one from the realities of the situation.

One series of questions would easily put the car out of the running. "What year is this and what motor is in it?" "1986 you say with a 300tdi?" "Okay, who installed it?" "Oh, it came that way? Well, thank you for your time and good luck with the sale."
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  #796  
Old July 19th, 2014, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
Incongruous comparison is incongruous as in the end, the law is still broken. In this world of Google instant answers, a thread here describing what is legal and what is not, I find it near impossible to understand how someone would not know. You no longer need encyclopedic knowledge as a buyer of a used car. Sites like this and Google make it so that you do not need it. You are flexible in your pursuits, unlike CBP agents who have to follow a rigid set of rules. As for what should happen to the CBP agents? I would say that it has already happened at numerous ports, the 110 crushed in Baltimore shows as much. They now know exactly what to look for and are looking for it. No sympathy for or against them from me. They are simply doing their job. I asked about the BJ60 even though it was cleared by both Canadian and US Customs. I STILL asked the questions knowing that there is as active a bringing in of diesel, non conforming Cruisers and would rather not take the chance. I spent 15 minutes on Mud and figured it out. Sometimes a desire to own can blind one from the realities of the situation.

One series of questions would easily put the car out of the running. "What year is this and what motor is in it?" "1986 you say with a 300tdi?" "Okay, who installed it?" "Oh, it came that way? Well, thank you for your time and good luck with the sale."
The document that came in made no reference to the vehicles motors - only them being a few months off in most cases. And it's possible on the DOT form maybe the month wasn't even listed - who knows. But the reality is they were presented with a V5 at the same time...which lists month/year of first registration. They HAD the information in front of them. They just chose not to read it...AND grant entry.

Not to mention their dates are so whacked on that sheet who knows if they've even listed the current month/year correctly NOW. All that needs to be checked...plenty show reg dates before build dates.
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  #797  
Old July 19th, 2014, 05:13 PM
bigrichmanitoba
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Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
The document that came in made no reference to the vehicles motors - only them being a few months off in most cases. And it's possible on the DOT form maybe the month wasn't even listed - who knows. But the reality is they were presented with a V5 at the same time...which lists month/year of first registration. They HAD the information in front of them. They just chose not to read it...AND grant entry.

Not to mention their dates are so whacked on that sheet who knows if they've even listed the current month/year correctly NOW. All that needs to be checked...plenty show reg dates before build dates.
Are you sure that document made no mention of motors?
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  #798  
Old July 19th, 2014, 05:21 PM
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Are you sure that document made no mention of motors?
Not for any trucks that were taken in this round. Only the 2 imports that never made it "in" from 2012. So yes, I'm sure.
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  #799  
Old July 19th, 2014, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
The document that came in made no reference to the vehicles motors - only them being a few months off in most cases. And it's possible on the DOT form maybe the month wasn't even listed - who knows. But the reality is they were presented with a V5 at the same time...which lists month/year of first registration. They HAD the information in front of them. They just chose not to read it...AND grant entry.

Not to mention their dates are so whacked on that sheet who knows if they've even listed the current month/year correctly NOW. All that needs to be checked...plenty show reg dates before build dates.

Some poster had the agents at the time of seizure point out that the number on the block was different. It is evident motor counts and seems to be another thing they looked for in non compliance.
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  #800  
Old July 19th, 2014, 05:28 PM
bigrichmanitoba
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Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
Some poster had the agents at the time of seizure point out that the number on the block was different. It is evident motor counts and seems to be another thing they looked for in non compliance.
Vigger hit the nail on the head!
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