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  #741  
Old July 18th, 2014, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stobbie View Post
I've heard about a few seizures as well..

A friend of mine from Switserland has sold his 1986 110 V8 to the US about a year ago.
It was a 100% original car, which he had bought new himself in 1986.
it was seized yesterday.
They did not use one off the well known defender importers but they have arranged everything themselves as much as possible.



I also know off two other seizures, a Dutch 110 V8, and a Swiss 90 2.5 N/A diesel, both original cars with no modifications and not imported by one off the bigger names.


After reading the warrant, this becomes a very strange story. Maybe I missed it but nobody confirmed this story yet, right ? Also, somebody 5000 mls away knows about three cars nobody in the US knows or heard about......
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  #742  
Old July 18th, 2014, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
They don't affect new car sales.
I dunno. Putting the brakes on imported Defender sales now, then introducing a compliant Defender replacement in 5 years might play out for JLRNA. Nothing sells like nostalgia, look around at the Challengers and Camaros at every stoplight. Think about the Nissan Skyline and its big brother the GTR.
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  #743  
Old July 18th, 2014, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post

They don't affect new car sales.
Very true.

But in a Federal case this broad afecting +100 people, they need to be very thorough when giving the information.
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  #744  
Old July 18th, 2014, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dolomiti View Post
So...what is the Dr's criminal liability?
Didn't you state many pages back that you are an atty ? How is it the atty is asking the laymen ?

I don't get some folks and their posts.
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  #745  
Old July 18th, 2014, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNBright View Post
So, if a Rover had a rotten chassis, and a replacement galvanized chassis was used, are you just SOL?
In order to enter the USA exempt from DOT's standards it has to be all original in every way as is outlined in the warrant. Since the chassis is the largest part of the car and the primary identifying part of the car, damn right it has to be original on entry. If not it is considered VIN tampering.

Under the trucks "for Sale" column please read the "whats legal" thread, its a sticky right up top. That's why the moderators created it as an educational resource so new guys don't all ask the same questions over and over again and take threads off topic.
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  #746  
Old July 18th, 2014, 11:47 PM
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That warrant stinks. It's all based on the opinions of people that got the information for their opinion from uninformed, unreliable sources. I suppose judges sign warrants and search and seizure orders everyday based on skimpy "evidence" and the opinions of law enforcement.
What a load of crap. How can the warrant list every "1983" vehicle as actual year 2000 with no evidence or vehicle inspection to demonstrate.
How could someone get the year wrong?
Doug alluded to the fact that up until 2012 CBP knowingly allowed vehicles with new engines etc to enter the country as long as the vehicle year was 25 years or older.
It seems to me that this behaviour would constitute a "pattern" which importers and buyers alike relied upon to their detriment. Surely if a pattern of lax enforcement constituting the " norm" can be shown perhaps a judge can be convinced to wrap CBP on the knuckles rather than over 100 victims?
Of course the first order of business must be to correct the erroneous dating used in the warrant I suppose.
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  #747  
Old July 18th, 2014, 11:54 PM
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Certainly the trucks shown as registered in 1984 and built in 2000 would get this whole thing thrown out of court in minutes.
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  #748  
Old July 18th, 2014, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Certainly the trucks shown as registered in 1984 and built in 2000 would get this whole thing thrown out of court in minutes.
Let's hope so!
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  #749  
Old July 19th, 2014, 12:03 AM
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Hello,

My name is Shawn and I live in Houston.

I joined this sight after seeing this hit the radar on another Marque's RADAR.....

How is this any different than seeing an old mustang made into an Elenor?

This is a bunch of ridiculous waste of government BS.....

Now a Land Rover is an "Illegal Immigrant" that we are going to enforce a law on?

Stuff like this doesn't fly in Texas.

I welcome you guys to join us here. My family has been here for almost 200 years.

You want my Defender? Come and visit us! I assure all, my Defender won't be leaving TX!

I feel the worst for the law enforcement people stuck in the middle of this. It isn't fair to them.

Take a look at the Steve McQueen LeMans pics!!!
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  #750  
Old July 19th, 2014, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discotdi View Post
Doug alluded to the fact that up until 2012 CBP knowingly allowed vehicles with new engines etc to enter the country as long as the vehicle year was 25 years or older.
Certainly don't recall saying that. If I did what I meant to impart was that prior to the end of 2012 Customs enforced the existing laws quite differently. Many officers handling vehicle entries would tell you, if you asked, that EPA's requirement was 21yrs as per their form and DOT's was 25yrs per their form. Many officers believed that a 21yr old engine in a 25yr old truck was completely legal and this is how the law was enforced. New engines were never cool.

What has changed is how the law is now interpreted and enforced by Customs. I have never seen in writing the "twist" which is that DOT can enforce that the engine needs to be the type the truck was built with, since engines are totally EPA's domain, not DOT's. That said, I haven't spent the hours reading the statutes since it doesn't matter, how they are enforcing is how they are enforcing. I find it fascinating that they point out the a transer case in one truck is from 04 etc. When something generic like an lt230 fails you generally put in the newest one available to you. That's the same regardless of brand the world over and arguably has zero effect on the legal originality of a damn truck. Just more smoke blown @ a Judge to get the warrant signed.
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  #751  
Old July 19th, 2014, 12:12 AM
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You all have seen pretty well everything that I have noticed when I first reviewed the Complaint.

General Counsel for a Jaguar Land Rover North America was made aware of the errors in the document attached to the Complaint earlier today. In light of those errors, JLRNA was very prompt in notifying me that they had issued a revised document to the US Attorney & CBP this afternoon.

I have not seen it yet, but I suspect it will contain some significant changes. I do not anticipate that it will have any more vehicles added to it.

I will know more when I meet with the agent in charge of the investigation and the US Attorney, hopefully on Monday.
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  #752  
Old July 19th, 2014, 12:28 AM
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My .03 cents…the warrant and seizures were executed based on evidence provide to the court by the investigator. This is multi-step process where thing will change as contested based evidence presented about each individual instance. More evidence will come to light as the case expands as other information is disclosed. We all know that from past exposure to what was being offered for sale by accused that some of it appeared to good to true. The trucks in question obviously passed the initial inspection process and now .GOV is reviewing that process as to how they were let in. One fact that needs to be brought to light is that the importer is held responsible for the vehicle for it's lifetime in the US and some unsuspecting folks are suffering from someone pushing the limits…taking off my old hat and goin' back to drinkin'…


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  #753  
Old July 19th, 2014, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Let's be real here, the majority of people working at JLRNA are not Defender experts. I'm not at all surprised by the discrepancies.
A Customs officer told me JLRNA has a dedicated staff to handle their inquiries on these trucks. The officer was amazed since NO OTHER manufacturer has staff dedicated to squashing enthusiasts imports of their product.

JRNA is lower than slug slime in my book.
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  #754  
Old July 19th, 2014, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
A Customs officer told me JLRNA has a dedicated staff to handle their inquiries on these trucks. The officer was amazed since NO OTHER manufacturer has staff dedicated to squashing enthusiasts imports of their product.

JRNA is lower than slug slime in my book.
Not only squashing imports, but feeding misinformation based on the glaring innacuracies in the report. Way to go JLRNA, way to go.
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  #755  
Old July 19th, 2014, 01:24 AM
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Willh you're the man.
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  #756  
Old July 19th, 2014, 01:49 AM
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Now the forum knows quickly (thanks to Will) that the warrants relate to non conformity and not any other illegality, how does this affect the future of all the other Defenders (and yes I know they're not true Defs) that have sailed into America 'illegally' and are being used on American roads now?

Are the authorities going to inspect every single Land Rover imported under the 25 year rule to prove that they are, or are not, legitimate?

Last year, Doug informed me that a galvanised chassis was a complete 'no no' and that the Port Authorities were checking on the Leyland Logos stamped on the RHS dumb iron. Although, in the past, the 200tdi engine seemed to pass, now it did not. He also said that disc braked rear axles were not getting through and that body panels had to be of original year if replaced.

On another matter, I contacted Clint Lindsay from NHTSA who told me that engine, transmission and bodywork changes from the original build were not acceptable for import. In other words, don't try and export a 1986 Def with push-button door handles.

Since last year, it seems to me that the authorities have self imposed a set of importation restrictions which have stopped any illegal trucks from entering the US. This now is clear, and Doug has always been the first to advise, the days of 1985 Pumas are over.

But whoever has stirred the shit over these seizures has not thought it through. There must be people all over America driving 'illegal' trucks that have been allowed into the US over the past years. Moreover, I'm sure that many of them are totally unaware of what's going on in NC. They don't have any interest in the Land Rover community other than putting their Def in their driveway and taking their family (I back I hope!!) to the mountains.

If I was a victim of one of these seized trucks, and I was in complete ignorance of my 'crime', I'd want to get even.

I think the first thing would be to note the tag of every Puma, TD5 or 300tdi bodied Def that I saw and report it. What's good for the Goose is good for Gander. So then the police would have to check out every suspicious truck and go all through the rigmarole to prove its identity. Surely, this isn't going to happen.

The 'Shit Stirrers' have opened Pandora's Box (and I'm talking about the Greek one, you perves!!) - let's hope Will and co. can get the lid back on in time.
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  #757  
Old July 19th, 2014, 02:02 AM
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Just a quickie.

I think that someone has said that the importer should be to blame for what's gone on in the past.

I disagree, it's the exporter who's responsible.

He knew what was being shipped out, and he had a responsibility to make sure the truck was legal.

Even recently, I've seen on eBay UK someone peddling a TD Def with a 200tdi engine. The ad heads up:

IDEAL FOR US IMPORT

?????????????
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  #758  
Old July 19th, 2014, 03:10 AM
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I get the whole idea of miss representing vehicles on import and this is wrong and the crooks who do this need to be charged fined or whatever, however, while I don't fault the customs officer doing his job this is bad policy that brings the administration of justice into disrepute and makes public servants look like thugs which is destructive to the country

First to say the vehicles are unsafe is pure administrative BS What is the UK where they came from? A third world country, a banana republic? Solution get rid of import bans on the Rovers and if there is a technical safety objection, a real one give owners and legitimate importers the chance to bring it up to speed. If the restrictions is to only to put a barrier on Rover imports get rid of it go for it and start a genuine trade war with your friends and allies. Duh?

As for people who legitimately bought the vehicles and were hoodwinked by the importer, let them bring the vehicles up to speed and the fines and asset seizures from importer can help pay for this. Sounds like true justice? This should be about justice not revenge by the state on citizens ( a county of the people, by the people, for the people ). Don';t you know your own history and why Americans threw the tea in the harbour.? Why is your own government throwing Rovers/private property in the harbour? It is the mark of a decadent state who has lost touch with its own people and basic civility

I read the seizure and it sounded like Russia or a third world country where there is not sense of fair play or due process. Why did they not just zip tie the owners and put a hood over their heads? Perhaps they should have fired a Hellfire II missile from a Predator at owners on the Road with their Rovers? Saves paperwork?. The whole scene discussed me as civil service out of touch with its own people and impressed with their own power. In the words of Deputy PM Erik Nelson “ Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”,

Where in the hell are we going with this behavior and lack of impulse control, and lack of regulatory civility? Really?
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  #759  
Old July 19th, 2014, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Didn't you state many pages back that you are an atty ? How is it the atty is asking the laymen ?

I don't get some folks and their posts.
Many assumptions you make. No other attorneys here? No one else know the doctor and may know if he is/has been in custody? At this point, there are a myriad of things he could be charged with.

You'd think that yourself might be interested in his whereabouts particularly since you've been in essence defending him by pointing out the mistakes that the AUSA made when relying JLRNA's info?

Aren't you a prominent importer too? Aren't you concerned that this fallout could effect you, even though you're a know-it-all? I've found that prosecutions tend to be over broad and require the defendant to prove their side (despite what is constitutionally provided for).

Still don't get me or my post?
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  #760  
Old July 19th, 2014, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Let's be real here, the majority of people working at JLRNA are not Defender experts. I'm not at all surprised by the discrepancies.
If JLRNA is giving CBP inaccurate information, that results in the seizure and potential crushing of legal land rovers, have they considered their legal liability in this matter? Some of these trucks may well be legal. Others likely will be shown not to be legal. Only time and documentation will prove the true facts.
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