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  #721  
Old July 18th, 2014, 06:56 PM
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Mine has the date of manufacture stamped on the truck from the factory -- how hard is it to figure this out? -- do some cars not have this? I also have several documents going back to 1988, and at least one document with the original shipping date from the factory -- month and day.
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  #722  
Old July 18th, 2014, 07:25 PM
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So...what is the Dr's criminal liability?
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  #723  
Old July 18th, 2014, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
The issue comes in that if the frame was replaced with a galvanized one, it is no longer origional. Even if the VIN was restamped (which is a no-no), it most likely wont have the Leyland swirl before and after. It also sounds like Aaron was playing fast and loose with the dates, which explains all of the 24 yr trucks. -Jeff
Speaking of that, am I the only one concerned that the document posted referred to the vehicles not having the "asterisk" before and after the VIN? As referenced above, and also previously by Doug, these vehicles should have the Leyland stamp/logo - NOT the asterisk. The asterisk came about (I believe) when they went from the Ninety and One-Ten nomenclature to the Defender name (circa late-1990).

Based on the statements in the document, they are holding vehicles as "illegal" for not having an identifying mark...that shouldn't even be on there!
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  #724  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBBailey View Post
Mine has the date of manufacture stamped on the truck from the factory -- how hard is it to figure this out? -- do some cars not have this?
To my knowledge only vehicles built to MOD and UK Gov contracts had a number plate on the seat box with a date. No- none of the civilian trucks did.
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  #725  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
To my knowledge only vehicles built to MOD and UK Gov contracts had a number plate on the seat box with a date. No- none of the civilian trucks did.
I don't think mine even has the date on that plate, or if it does, I don't know how to read it.
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  #726  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
The issue comes in that if the frame was replaced with a galvanized one, it is no longer origional. Even if the VIN was restamped (which is a no-no), it most likely wont have the Leyland swirl before and after. It also sounds like Aaron was playing fast and loose with the dates, which explains all of the 24 yr trucks.
So, if a Rover had a rotten chassis, and a replacement galvanized chassis was used, are you just SOL? You can replace a bulb, a change the oil, but can't fit a replacement part just because it's bigger?


-L
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  #727  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
Speaking of that, am I the only one concerned that the document posted referred to the vehicles not having the "asterisk" before and after the VIN? As referenced above, and also previously by Doug, these vehicles should have the Leyland stamp/logo - NOT the asterisk. The asterisk came about (I believe) when they went from the Ninety and One-Ten nomenclature to the Defender name (circa late-1990). Based on the statements in the document, they are holding vehicles as "illegal" for not having an identifying mark...that shouldn't even be on there!
Probably what he meant. Sounds like nomenclature to me.
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  #728  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
Speaking of that, am I the only one concerned that the document posted referred to the vehicles not having the "asterisk" before and after the VIN? As referenced above, and also previously by Doug, these vehicles should have the Leyland stamp/logo - NOT the asterisk. The asterisk came about (I believe) when they went from the Ninety and One-Ten nomenclature to the Defender name (circa late-1990).

Based on the statements in the document, they are holding vehicles as "illegal" for not having an identifying mark...that shouldn't even be on there!

Doug, can you please confirm that all chassis should either have the "asterisk" or the Leyland Stamp before and after the VIN?

I've seen that asterisk on VINs, but only on the ID plate that's typically attached to the brake booster, with a matching VIN on the chassis, but without any additional markings.

Can you kindly shed some light on this? Thanks.
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  #729  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNBright View Post
So, if a Rover had a rotten chassis, and a replacement galvanized chassis was used, are you just SOL? You can replace a bulb, a change the oil, but can't fit a replacement part just because it's bigger?


-L
Lots of trucks with replacement chassis came in with the lopped off front frame horn from the original chassis that displayed the "VIN"... but two or three owners down the line that big ugly chunk of torch-cut rusty steel provenance is likely gone.
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  #730  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNBright View Post
So, if a Rover had a rotten chassis, and a replacement galvanized chassis was used, are you just SOL? You can replace a bulb, a change the oil, but can't fit a replacement part just because it's bigger?


-L
Or, to add fuel to the fire...what if the chassis was replaced here in the states? That's perfectly acceptable. And I would imagine in the 4-5 years that have passed since the vehicles arrive - is a very likely scenario.

------ Follow up post added July 18th, 2014 09:44 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
Probably what he meant. Sounds like nomenclature to me.
We are talking about an official government document here, where the information presented in that document is ground for retaining and seizing the private property of United States citizens. I don't expect the nomenclature to be incorrect....even by a degree or two. They are incorrectly labeling things, and in fact are describing symbols/marks that didn't start appearing until post-1990...of which none of these vehicles are.

I don't think I'm being nit-picking...I'm being realistic. "Well your honor, we were wrong...we THOUGHT the murderer used a hacksaw, but in fact it was a regular kitchen knife - same thing, even though we've entered it as evidence incorrectly".
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  #731  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:44 PM
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And how many 3.5l and 2.5NA motors got yanked for a Tdi while here?
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  #732  
Old July 18th, 2014, 08:44 PM
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Yes which is why the owner should document the chassis swap with photos and retain the original front right section.
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  #733  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
This is the point. If the VIN given to the gov claimed it to be a 1987, but it was not actually produced until a year later, something is wrong there. That is the point of this. The VIN on the plate probably does not match the VIN on the frame. That seems to be the crux of the issue with these trucks. If it were legit, there should be uniformity in the progression of year.
Hang on skippy. You certainly are quite the expert having never owned one of these trucks. You seem to be making quite a number of assumptions in your posts. Based on your statements it is apparent you have never imported a vehicle and have zero depth of knowledge. Not sure why you are driven to post your assumptions. How many more times are you going to repeat the 300tdi obd2 port story in this thread ?

One of the primary documents required to import a vehicle include an original or good quality scan of the foreign registration as is outlined/explained on the warrant. The original is surrendered to DMV when titling an imported vehicle in most states. IE this isn't an affidavit based process, hard proof is provided to Customs to support the entry filing. UK Customs also does a due dilligence on the registration as part of the export customs piece. A UK registration/V5/aka log book is a bi-fold 4 page long document meant to be very difficult to counterfeit, since a lot of the information contained can be readily verified online why would anyone bother ?. The HS7 form is where I see the issue here. Many brokers simply put in model year when a vehicle is over 25yrs old. The form asks "date of manufacture". The incredible flaw in your reasoning is when you say "the VIN provided to the government is claimed to be a 1987, but was not produced until a year later". What further evidence could either the buyer/importer or the Customs entry officer possibly need beyond the damn registration clearly stating the date the car was first put on the road ? Obviously if its being driven around on one date, it cannot possibly have been built a year later.

This is US Customs trying to fix their house. Customs officers granted these trucks entry with the date of first registration right in front of them. THIS ISN"T ABOUT SOMEONE LYING-ITS ABOUT AN ENTRY OFFICER HAVING DECIDED ON HIS/HER OWN TO GRANT/CLEAR THE ENTRY WITH THE FACTS IN FRONT OF HIM/HER. Instead of holding the entry officer's responsible for their professional decisions, they are pursuing the importer ? Anyone else see a flaw here ? I can say that from experience many officers handling entry's prior to Dec 2012 believed that 25 model years old was sufficient, I have had many of them say this to me. Other forum members who have inquired of Customs over the years before even shopping in the UK for a truck have been told the same and have posted those statements on this forum in the past, Mike Smith went as far as to say that he had been held to a different standard. The crime here that I see on most of the listed VIN's is that US Customs made fully informed entry decisions and now feels that despite it being their decision they now conveniently consider the vehicles to be contraband. It is my sincere hope Will can convince a Judge to smack this lunancy down. I hope one of these auto industry blog writers shine a damn spotlight on that salient point.

The rabid need of some in this thread to vilify the importer while ignoring the facts in front of you amazes me. The government employee's responsible for administering/enforcing these laws did not know what the laws were/said. Who's responsible for that flail ? Perhaps if you have no knowledge of the subject you should simply follow the thread and not interject.

I do not see any indication of VIN swapping in this warrant @ all. What I see are a number of egregious errors on the spread sheet. Obviously either the person typing the warrant or the person @ Land Rover providing the data (possitive its the later) is a complete idiot. Anyone can go onto the web and pull up vehicle information based on the UK plate registration number. Seemingly if there was a question, Customs could have spent a few mins on the DVLA sight and see that these trucks like Harrigan's were first registered on X date since they have copies of the original registration and damn well know what the UK plate number was. What is criminal here is an engineer for Land Rover committing perjury to further the companies agenda to stop their hand built "heritage" product from entering this country.

CLEARLY what you either choose to ignore or didn't catch is that a vehicle cannot possibly be manufactured on a date that is later than the date it was first registered.

I'm also fairly certain (but will stand corrected if someone shows me other wise) that 2000 model year trucks had world wide conforming VINS. All 1980's VIN's on 90's/110's/127's were non conforming vins. Seemingly the Land Rover engineer making these assertions would have this basic knowledge ?

Not defending Aaron. Obviously galvanized chassis/computerized diesels etc have never been legal.

Just applying what I know to be fact to what I'm reading in this warrant and sharing my observations.

FYI if you owned one, you would know the plate on the brake booster typically has asterisk's @ either end of the VIN. The frame has a stamp similar to this @ either end of the VIN. This isn't about the two being different/not matching. Because these are hand built trucks and the VIN's hand stamped with old school stamps and a BFH with zero precision, Nigel did a better job some days than others and there is little uniformity.
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  #734  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
You have been posting here for sometime. You are either 1) joking or 2) only post and don't read.
1) I'm not joking
2) I do read

If my post don't interest you just pass them by. If you are following my postings, and it appears that you are, you would understand why engine swaps concerns me and other members.
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  #735  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post

Hang on skippy. You certainly are quite the expert having never owned one of these trucks. You seem to be making quite a number of assumptions. Based on your statements it is apparent you have never imported a vehicle and have zero depth of knowledge. Not sure why you are driven to post your assumptions. How many times are you going to repeat the 300tdi obd2 port story in this thread ?

One of the primary documents required to import a vehicle include an original or good quality scan of the foreign registration as is outlined/explained on the warrant. The original is surrendered to DMV when titling an imported vehicle in most states. IE this isn't an affidavit based process, hard proof is provided to Customs to support the entry filing. UK Customs also does a due dilligence on the registration as part of the export customs piece. A UK registration/V5/aka log book is a bi-fold 4 page long document meant to be very difficult to counterfeit, since a lot of the information contained can be readily verified online why would anyone bother ?. The HS7 form is where I see the issue here. Many brokers simply put in model year when a vehicle is over 25yrs old. The form asks "date of manufacture". The incredible flaw in your reasoning is when you say "the VIN provided to the government is claimed to be a 1987, but was not produced until a year later". What further evidence could either the buyer/importer or the Customs entry officer possible need beyond the damn registration clearly stating the date the car was first registered ? Obviously if its being driven around on one date it cannot possibly have been built a year later.

This is US Customs trying to fix their house. Customs officers granted these trucks entry with the date of first registration right in front of them. THIS ISN"T ABOUT SOMEONE LYING-ITS ABOUT AN ENTRY OFFICER HAVING GRANTED THE ENTRY WITH THE FACTS IN FRONT OF HIM. Instead of holding the entry officer responsible for his professional decisions, they are pursuing the importer ? I can say that from experience many officers handling entry's prior to Dec 2012 believed that 25 model years old was sufficient, I have had many of them say this to me. Others forum members who have inquired of Customs over the years
before even shopping in the UK for a truck have been told the same and have posted those statements on this forum over the years.

The rabid need of some in this thread to vilify the importer while ignoring the facts in front of you amazes me. The government employee's responsible for administering/enforcing these laws did not know what the laws. Who's responsible for that flail ? Perhaps if you have no knowledge of the subject you should simply follow the thread an not interject.

I do not see any indication of VIN swapping in this warrant @ all. What I see are a number of egregious errors on the spread sheet. Obviously either the person typing the warrant or the person @ Land Rover providing the data (possitive its the later) is a complete idiot. Anyone can go onto the web and pull up vehicle information based on the UK plate registration number. Seemingly if there was a question, Customs could have spent a few mins on the DVLA sight and see that these trucks like Harrigan's were first registered on X date since they have copies of the original registration and damn well know what the UK plate number was. What is criminal here is an engineer for Land Rover committing perjury to further the companies agenda to stop their hand built "heritage" product from entering this country.

CLEARLY what you either choose to ignore or didn't catch is that a vehicle cannot possibly be manufactured on a date that is later than the date it was first registered.

I'm also fairly certain (but will stand corrected if someone shows me other wise) that 2000 model year trucks had world wide conforming VINS. All 1980's VIN's on 90's/110's/127's were non conforming vins. Seemingly the Land Rover engineer making these assertions would have this basic knowledge ?

Not defending Aaron. Just applying what I know to be fact to what I'm reading in this warrant and sharing my observations.

FYI if you owned one you would know the plate on the brake booster typically has asterisk's @ either end of the VIN. The frame has a stamp similar to this @ either end of the VIN.
Amen brother. Great post dood.
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  #736  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:32 PM
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Let's be real here, the majority of people working at JLRNA are not Defender experts. I'm not at all surprised by the discrepancies.
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  #737  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:35 PM
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  #738  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Let's be real here, the majority of people working at JLRNA are not Defender experts. I'm not at all surprised by the discrepancies.
They better be if your (miss)information will affect +100 people.
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  #739  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post

FYI if you owned one you would know the plate on the brake booster typically has asterisk's @ either end of the VIN. The frame has a stamp similar to this @ either end of the VIN.
Bingo. For your viewing pleasure, some examples attached. If they all look like they were stamped by some drunk Englishman after a long weekend, well....
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  #740  
Old July 18th, 2014, 09:50 PM
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They better be if your (miss)information will affect +100 people.
They don't affect new car sales.
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