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  #21  
Old March 28th, 2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
I could have ran over Oprah and not even seen her.

That alone attests to it's good 4wd capabilities!
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  #22  
Old March 28th, 2008, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardMoore
My guess - Defender production will move to somewhere cheaper[India/Turkey ??] and won't be sold in Europe or US
Richard:
Noticed you live in Warwickshire... just curious - what makes you think this? (You are a lot closer to the action than we are on this side...)
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  #23  
Old March 28th, 2008, 12:12 PM
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I think that the Tata deal will be the best thing that could happen to Land Rover. I feel that a third world perspective will reinforce the utilitarian roots of the marque.

Look at the history:
  • British Leyland was a complete joke and had to be rescued by the British government from bankruptcy
  • British Aerospace made complicated crap that didn't work (P38a)
  • BMW put bosch electrics in place of lucas and rolled out the uber snobby Mark III with even more complicated components, also they eliminated solid axles in favor of independent suspensions.
  • Ford robbed the company of its technology and styling points, shut down the rover V8 engine line, made the exciting new models look like fords (LR2) and outsourced the entire supply chain to ford owned companies, they eliminated parts in favor of assemblies
Tata is a huge steel maker in India and has had tremendous success in its businesses to date.

In my dealings with Indian companies they have been very competent and far cheaper and faster than their American competition. I think much of the resistance is based in cultural bias. I have had to overcome my own bias to see the deal for what it is, a lifeline for the company to rebuild itself after being raped by the 3rd largest car company in the world.

Land Rover's success was based on not being a cookie cutter company but by being a unique one, I believe that under Tata's leadership, Land Rover will live on. If ford had not sold them they would have become ford's buick.
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  #24  
Old March 28th, 2008, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landrovered
... after being raped by the 3rd largest car company in the world...
Pretty much. BMW was just a quick beat down, mugging and rape in the alley behind the bar. Ford was a kidnapping, where LR was thrown into the windowless basement dungeon and raped daily in trade for food and water. Once the cops started snooping around, Ford had to get rid of the evidence.
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  #25  
Old March 28th, 2008, 02:49 PM
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I'm optimistic for LR like Scott.
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  #26  
Old March 28th, 2008, 04:52 PM
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George Kase
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"If my lotus can pass crash tests, a defender can as well."

You know, Ron, I've often wondered this same question...there's a lot of dangerous stuff rolling around on US highways...like my Honda Insight...why wouldn't a D90 pass a crash test if something like an Insight is allowed on the same road with semis and Escalades?
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  #27  
Old March 28th, 2008, 05:13 PM
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Quite candidly, there is not a single new LR I have much interest in buying. They are cars, and I'd just as soon get a BMW or Mercedes and enjoy a real car-driving experience.

On the LR World homepage, there's some caption about how LRs have taken "explorers, environmentalists, and scientists across the world". I'm so tired of the trendy marketing babble. Maybe Tata will put to bed this weak-kneed corporate approach and embrace the real LR history.
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  #28  
Old March 28th, 2008, 09:19 PM
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Julien Dalbin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landrovered
I think that the Tata deal will be the best thing that could happen to Land Rover. I feel that a third world perspective will reinforce the utilitarian roots of the marque.

Look at the history:
  • British Leyland was a complete joke and had to be rescued by the British government from bankruptcy
  • British Aerospace made complicated crap that didn't work (P38a)
  • BMW put bosch electrics in place of lucas and rolled out the uber snobby Mark III with even more complicated components, also they eliminated solid axles in favor of independent suspensions.
  • Ford robbed the company of its technology and styling points, shut down the rover V8 engine line, made the exciting new models look like fords (LR2) and outsourced the entire supply chain to ford owned companies, they eliminated parts in favor of assemblies
Tata is a huge steel maker in India and has had tremendous success in its businesses to date.

In my dealings with Indian companies they have been very competent and far cheaper and faster than their American competition. I think much of the resistance is based in cultural bias. I have had to overcome my own bias to see the deal for what it is, a lifeline for the company to rebuild itself after being raped by the 3rd largest car company in the world.

Land Rover's success was based on not being a cookie cutter company but by being a unique one, I believe that under Tata's leadership, Land Rover will live on. If ford had not sold them they would have become ford's buick.

Make sense to me... Plus Indian being workolics...Good for genuine LR spirit.
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  #29  
Old March 29th, 2008, 09:06 AM
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GYM asked why I thought LR would build Defender in India/Turkey and not sell in Eu or US - well cost of keeping up with EU/US regs is prohibitive on a low volume vehicle but there is a big market in unregulated parts of the world, any new 'Defender ' for EU/US will share a common platform with other products and will be a Defender in name and silhouette only. Live in Warks but have no connection with LR, plenty of Defenders on the roads round here - could easily spot 30 or 40 a day of various vintage from S1 through D-130's, the odd ex- Camel to brand new D-110 utilities used by gas/ electric/water companies, gotta be 6 D-90 's on the street I live on. :-)
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  #30  
Old March 29th, 2008, 11:32 PM
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I emailed Tata's web site "contact us" about importing the 90 to us again several months ago and never got a reply, maybe if we flood their site with requests for the 90 to be imported again we can get their attention.
http://www.tata.com/0_contact_us/query_form_general.asp
Tata Group | Contact us | General query form
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  #31  
Old March 30th, 2008, 11:32 AM
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I have been in contact with their corporate comunication officer and he has suggested that I communicate our opinions to him directly for distribution to the proper personnel.

I am intending to do this but what we don't want to do is flood them with off the wall emails and come off like a bunch of crackpots.

Scott S.
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  #32  
Old March 30th, 2008, 12:44 PM
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George Kase
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Scott,
can you post this guys contact info so the rest of us crackpots can share our off-the-wall interest in pouring money into his company?
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  #33  
Old March 30th, 2008, 01:07 PM
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My contact is in the preliminary stage, once it is established and I know I am not getting the corporate brush off I will post it here.
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  #34  
Old March 31st, 2008, 11:23 PM
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Intresting

http://www.lro.com/news.php?sid=144&page=1
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  #35  
Old April 1st, 2008, 12:22 AM
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Kevin Collins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_lucas
That would be great...but I won't hold my breath until it happens.
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  #36  
Old April 1st, 2008, 10:26 AM
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Agreed, but it is nice to see that TATA recognizes that the Defender still has a place in this world.

I honestly feel that under Ford the Defenders days were numbered and it would have been scrapped. While the Defender or CKD may never make it to the US it will still be nice to see it live on as that means replacement parts will be around longer
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  #37  
Old April 1st, 2008, 10:34 AM
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Old news, but related to the topic.

http://www.rockcrawler.com/trailrepo...rover_d110.asp

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd...03.16.CKD.html
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  #38  
Old April 1st, 2008, 06:48 PM
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Robert Ragland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_lucas
Agreed, but it is nice to see that TATA recognizes that the Defender still has a place in this world.

I honestly feel that under Ford the Defenders days were numbered and it would have been scrapped. While the Defender or CKD may never make it to the US it will still be nice to see it live on as that means replacement parts will be around longer

The greatest untapped market for cars and trucks will be in areas with very poor roads. Perhaps they see a need for vehicles capable of operating in difficult environments, especially on the commercial side. Labor is cheap there, and the CKD might lower the delivered cost and have possible import tariff benefits as well. This sort of market was in direct contrast with what LR/Ford marketing has been targeting.

Maybe we can all cheer the day when LR no longer identifies modern architecture and concrete expanse as the best backdrop for its vehicles in pic spreads and on the website.
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  #39  
Old April 1st, 2008, 07:42 PM
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Tim Scully
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeep Rescue
I figured that statement would piss off some FJ owner on this board! Sorry....
LOL, My wife might get pissed if you talk about her FJ like that but I doubt too many 90s are built like her FJ either LOL and the blind spots aren't THAT BAD!!!

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/galle...p_9-07_018.JPG

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/galle...p_9-07_306.JPG


I think this is a good move for Land Rover and Jag. They need someone who is going to let them get back to what they are known for, being extraordinary vehicles. As someone who works for both Land Rover and Jag(contract work as driving instructor for special events), I am looking forward to what is to come.
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  #40  
Old April 2nd, 2008, 09:12 AM
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Letter to Tata

My Letter to Tata...

Mr. Sirs,


Thank you for responding to email, I realize that you are probably inundated with inquiries since the announcement of the purchase of Land Rover. This conversation will pertain to Land Rover only, Jaguar is not my area of expertise.



In looking forward it is important to see the past. I am sure you are quite aware of the history of Land Rover but I would like to make a few points.



The brand was built on the rugged utilitarian qualities of the early Land Rover vehicles, in terms of brand recognition and perception Land Rover is known for going anywhere and doing anything. It is the vehicle of choice for rough conditions from the Amazon to Zambezi. Land Rover vehicles have been the basis for and supported exploration and adventure beginning with the famous London to Singapore expedition in the 1950ís and still used by the United Nations personnel today. They have come to represent the ultimate utility vehicle in the world. At its core this idea of utility is what has drawn all Land Rover owners to the marque. I have traveled the world and I am always delighted to see old Series II, Series III and Defenders hard at work around the globe.



The Range Rover became a worldwide success by combining the utility of the early Land Rovers with luxury and features that were seldom seen in a vehicle with its off-road capabilities. This luxury plus utility paradigm has carried the brand forward to the present day. Range Rover North America reintroduced the brand to the North American market in 1988 but then changed its name in 1993 to Land Rover North America which confused many people that are not avid Land Rover fans. Then of course the company has had several changes in ownership with British Aerospace, then BMW and then Ford. Unfortunately most Land Rover enthusiasts now feel that Land Rover has lost its way. It is our hope that Tata can re-connect the brand with its rich heritage and legacy and get it back on the right track. After all the we in the enthusiast community, we are your biggest fans, we know the vehicles inside and out, we own them, use them, fix them and love them, we talk about them, have websites devoted to them and wear the clothes with the Land Rover name on them. We care about what happens to Land Rover. This is the collective opinion that I want to bring to your attention.



First, the resounding call from North American Land Rover enthusiasts is bring back the Defender. If there is one point that we all agree upon, this is it. We want NAS defenders in the 90, 110, 130 configurations. High cap pickups, station wagons, soft tops, crew cabs, the lot. We desperately want the same choices that the ROW buyer has always had. We understand the challenges presented by US emissions and safety standards but if Land Rover could do it from 1993 to 1997, we think it can be done again. We would like to see the basic Defender competing with Jeep and Toyota for the robust American 4x4 market.



Enthusiasts have been told numerous times by Land Rover management that buyers in North America only want gasoline powered V8 engines. This could not be further from the truth. Whether a TD5, 300TDI or even 200TDI variant, every club member I have ever met wants a factory turbo diesel option in every Land Rover model available. Many in the enthusiast community including myself have done our own diesel retrofits to their Land Rover vehicles. We also feel that the adoption of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel in the US will make this an easier task from the emissions side.



This raises another point, one of the finest qualities of the Land Rover line is the ability to accessorize and modify the basic design to suit our needs. Land Rover Special Vehicles has done a fantastic job of proving this point over the years. Look at the PTO option on the early Series vehicles, you could mow your field or use it to split wood. The Land Rover can be a fire truck, tow truck, ambulance, high lift bucket truck, they can be amphibious, dropped out of aircraft, tracked for snow, made into campers, flatbeds, pickups, safari vehicles, radio trucks, delivery vans, six wheeled vehicles, limousines, pope mobiles, anything you want. There is a reason that the first wheeled vehicle on the moon was called the Lunar ROVER, it was an homage to the great reputation of the Land Rover vehicle.



I have three Land Rovers at present; a Range Rover Classic, 93 NAS Defender 110 and a 1972 Series III 109 SW, all of these vehicles have been modified to suit my purposes. As a group we would like to see more factory options available such as locking front and rear differentials, voltage inverters for camping, onboard water tanks, additional underbody protection, lower transfer case ratios and center diff-lock should be available on all vehicles. All of these are available for older models from aftermarket manufacturers but not for the newer ones.



The next universal complaint is the abandonment of the solid axle in all NAS models since elimination of the Discovery II. The EAS assisted independent suspensions do not function as well or as long as the simpler solid axles shared by every Land Rover model from 1948 to 2005. Also we like coil springs much better than EAS. The Air suspension is expensive to fix, prone to failure and adds a level of complexity to the vehicle that is not welcomed when you are in the middle of nowhere, and the vehicle is the only way home. Once you have driven several hours on a wilderness trail on the bump stops due to EAS failure, you will agree, coils spring suspension should be offered as an option on every Land Rover model.



Serviceability is very important, I donít mean service by a factory tech either, one of the beauties of the defender is that in deepest Africa, you can find parts, you can fix the vehicle yourself, you can get home again. The Range Rover Classic (RRC), Discovery I (D1) and to some extent the Discovery II(D2) hit the perfect balance between sophistication and serviceability. The P38a, LR3, LR2 and RR Mk III and RR Sport are too complicated and therefore too unreliable for serious trail use. As for the ECUs in the vehicle, let us access them ourselves directly or through ODB II or even a windows based application, donít lock us out of the process, make it more available to owners. If I want my vehicle to behave a certain way, I should be able to communicate with it from my laptop without special software. Let the owner be an advocate for the vehicle, not the enemy. Also we like gauges that give us information, pressure, temperature not idiot lights that only warn you when you already have a problem.



We like parts not assemblies, this is for the above mentioned reasons. The Defender, RRC and D1 all have bearings that can be sourced anywhere in the world for about $20 US a piece. The D2 has a unique wheel bearing assembly that costs $430 US. This causes problems in availability and expense. Additionally the D2 wheel bearings are sealed type that cannot be serviced. This is the case with D2 prop shaft bearings as well, without grease fittings they cannot be greased and have a very high failure rate. A set of spark plug wires for a D2 cost $179 US because of the proprietary connection to the coil pack, plug wires for a Defender, D1 or RRC can be purchased for as little as $23 US. Cost of ownership is important to the success of the brand. The reputation of the LR3, RR Mk III, RR Sport and LR2 is that they are finicky and they cost you $1000 US every time anything goes wrong with them which is often. If you donít live near a dealership then donít buy one, this is the real perception here in the US.



Bring back the Rover V8 engine line, it is a fantastic engine and Ford should have never shut it down. This is not to say that outsourcing is a bad thing, ZF transmissions have served the brand very well, I have a Salisbury (Dana) rear axle in my Defender 110. Using widely available components is a good thing but keep the core of the vehicle within the control of Land Rover. Perhaps you should put the Rover V8 in the Jaguar, it was the engine of choice for TVR as well as many racing teams in the UK and Europe. For the diesels, the 300TDI engine was a good engine that was outsourced under license from Land Rover to International, it would be a good candidate for use today, in fact the continued evolution of the 300TDI is available as the International HS 2.8 TGV turbo diesel (made in Brazil) is a fantastic engine that is not controlled by an ECU it is manual. It still bolts straight in to the RRC, D1 and Defender without modification. The torque and horsepower curves are almost as good as the Land Rover V8ís and the fuel economy is much better.



We would encourage Tata to re-institute the factory parts support for older vehicles. A few years ago there was a large ad campaign announcing the continued parts supply for all models back to the RRC but after Ford bought Land Rover they withdrew the program. Fortunately parts are still available for most Land Rover models but it will not always be the case without a commitment to supply those by Land Rover. This directly affects resale value for customers that have spent a lot of money on new vehicles. My present Range Rover sold for $52,000 new, it is worth less than $5,000 today. The new Land Rover buyer faces one of the industryís worst depreciation situations with new models losing upwards of 40% of their value in the first 4 years.



Land Roverís entire US product line is made up of vehicles that retail for over $45,000 US with the Supercharged Range Rover Sport selling for a whopping $92,000 last time I drove one. The LR3 while promising, has not become the vehicle that it was meant to be, that is the replacement for the Discovery. The LR2 could have been that vehicle but does not offer a two speed transfer case, this was also the problem with the Freelander. We do not wish to see the Land Rover move from a 4 wheel drive to an all wheel drive vehicle. If we wanted an AWD car we would buy an Audi, Volvo or Subaru. We know that the competition from BMW, Porsche and Mercedes has greatly influenced the decisions made at Land Rover and pushed the brand toward the top end of the price spectrum and placed more emphasis on street driving than off-road driving but the enthusiasts feel that this is a mistake. Letís make it plain and simple, we donít want Land Rover to become a 4wd Lexus that can park itself. We feel that Land Rover is losing its soul by chasing the competition. Look at the last two vehicles that Land Rover designed under Fordís leadership, the LR2 and the LRX. They are Fords with a green oval stuck on the front. We see them as products designed by marketing focus groups, with specific price and feature points that result in vehicles that will be hard pressed to be accepted as a true Land Rovers. We have a name for these vehiclesÖ Mall Crawlers because the only thing they are used for is going to the mall.



On this point I can only speak for myself: I spent $ 42,000 for my first Range Rover in 1991, I have owned seven Land Rovers since that time, as I told you I currently own three Land Rovers. I would happily pay upwards of $50,000 for a new NAS diesel Defender 110 Station Wagon with crank up windows, solid axles and even the leaks and squeaks that come with the brand. However, there is not one current model offered in the US that I would buy today. I have driven them all, there is no doubt that the current Range Rover and Range Rover Sport are capable cars, the LR3 is a quality vehicle, I am not suggesting that these vehicles go away, but the LRX and LR2 should be scrapped and a suitable replacement that is based on the old style chassis, solid axles, robust mechanics and easily modified ROW vehicle should be offered along with the Defender in the US. One thing about US branding, we know that the LR2 is a Freelander II and we know that the rest of the world calls the LR3 the Discovery III, Please donít insult our intelligence by changing the name just for the American market.



Lastly, as an enthusiast, Tata should bring back the Camel Trophy or something like it and get rid of the G4 competition, G4 is too much TV reality show and not enough vehicle. In the Camel Trophy, the vehicle was the point, in the G4 it is only a way to get from the kayaking stage to the bicycling stage. Obviously a cigarette company cannot be the sponsor of the new competition but I think you get my point.



I hope that my points have been constructive and useful, I offer them because Land Rover and its future are important to me as they are to the fellow members of the Land Rover societies and clubs in the US. I hope that my comments offer insight into the mindset of the most devoted Land Rover owners in the US.

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