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  #1  
Old December 1st, 2008, 08:44 AM
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For those buying Series Rovers

I didn't know where else to place this other than chit-chat. I am finding more and more that people are selling trucks that have been "built by ECR", but the fact is we don't build that many trucks, and I know all the trucks by heart and know all the owners personally. This isn't GM up here, we are a relatively small shop (but I digress). Anyway I am getting lots of emails from people that have just bought, or are buying, ECR built trucks and in the end it turns out we have never seen or touched the truck.
I just got this email this morning (one example of many):

"Subject: Rover built by East Coast Rover

Hi Brett,

This is a Series rover rebuilt by East Coast Rover about 4 years ago,
It has a new coil sprung frame with defender 3:54 geared front and
read diffs and disc brakes (very nice) gets about 26 miles per gallon
and does 70 on the highway. The engine and transmission and t-case
are all excellent (new) and I have to say it is one of the nicest
running engines I have ever seen, and I have had over 500 Rovers ( I
really hate saying all this since East Coast Rovers is my largest
competitor), This is one nice Rover. This body is excellent with no
rust or dings or dents it has a few very small scratches. It has a
rear full cage roll with Defender seat belt, seating is 3 across the
front and 2 -2 person jump seats in the rear so it will carry 7
people. This rover need nothing and I would love to get it out of my
shop, it has been taking up space for 4 years now, the top is brand
new (never seen one full day of sun), paint is brite and nice, It has
Defender wheels and mags, I put in a new steering box 4 years ago and
just put in new clutch master cylinder and slave this last summer,
and a seal kit in the brakes, it should run for 10 years without
needing anything. The owner ( john) purchase it from East Coast
Rovers drove it out here so it only has about 2,000 total miles on
it, his wife hated it, they ended up having me build them a Defender
110" 5 door V-8 automatic, and this Rover has been sitting under a
tarp in my shop ever since. The last time I spoke with him, he
wanted to sell it, but never got around to listing it on ebay or on
line. To price it, he had me call East Coast and pretend to be a
buyer to find out what they would build another one for, they gave me
a quote for $48,700. John wanted $28,500 the last time I spoke with
him, however, I think he would go down a bit. I know he paid alot
more than that for it. anyway let me know if you have any questions,
or if you need more pictures of anything, Thanks Creed 406-590-4259
or 406-965-2214 "

This is from someone named Creed that must run a shop. I was sent pictures of the truck (one attached) and we have never worked on this truck and I have never seen it before. It does have an old (10 years plus) ECR sticker on it, but we give those away for free.
So we did not work on the truck, we didn't do a coil conversion, etc etc.
In some cases this can be an honest mistake, but in some cases it is a lie, I guess used to try and increase the sale price of the vehicle.

So the point to this is:
If you are buying a truck that was "built by ECR"... call ECR or email me before you buy it. I will be happy to discuss any truck we ever worked on and what we did or did not do to it. I'm likely good friends with the owner and can help you with all the information we have on the truck (we keep detailed files on every truck).
If we worked on it we will be proud of it, but these trucks that you can't find on the ECR web site and are being sold as ECR vehicles by other places... please check them out before you buy.

I guess I should be flattered that people want to do this, but I don't like seeing Rover folks get ripped off and I hoping by posting here the word will get out so that it slows down some.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old December 1st, 2008, 08:57 AM
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Most of Ed Bears collection is up for sale in Virginia. My understanding is that you did build/service those trucks ? Some realy neat trucks in exquisite condition-wearing said stickers.
Pretty sure the fellow Creed in the email you posted was Creed Evans in Montana. He calls his company Big Sky Rovers. I have never dealt with him but those considering doing so should do a google search on both his and his company's names.
http://www.roverpartsused.com/
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  #3  
Old December 1st, 2008, 09:06 AM
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Yes, we built some of Eds truck and serviced the others until he moved to VA.
He is a great guy, and at one time had more than a dozen of our trucks. He is crazy (in a good way).

The difference is that if Ed is selling a truck he'll point you to the ECR site were the truck project is shown in detail. Plus, Ed, being the good salesman he is, will tell you to contact me for details.

It is the guys who never were customers and say "Oh, it isn't on the ECR site because of reason X or Y" or "Don't contact ECR, they won't remember the truck" that are the issue.

Sadly , I remember just about ever truck we have ever done. I usually lived with them for quite some time, so they are hard to forget.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryland 110
Pretty sure the fellow Creed in the email you posted was Creed Evans in Montana. He calls his company Big Sky Rovers. I have never dealt with him but those considering doing so should do a google search on both his and his company's names.
http://www.roverpartsused.com/
OK, that explains a lot. I didn't put 2 and 2 together.
I've heard lots about him in the past...
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  #4  
Old December 1st, 2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR

"Oh, it isn't on the ECR site because of reason X or Y" or "Don't contact ECR, they won't remember the truck" that are the issue.
Anyone looking to buy a "built" truck has enough savy to want to investigate its provenance. Pretty poor planning to market something as "built by" but then tell the prospective buyer not to contact the builder.
Could be a really neat truck but the boomerang effect of lying will kill ya.
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  #5  
Old December 1st, 2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryland 110
Anyone looking to buy a "built" truck has enough savy to want to investigate its provenance. Pretty poor planning to market something as "built by" but then tell the prospective buyer not to contact the builder.
Could be a really neat truck but the boomerang effect of lying will kill ya.
They "should" investigate... but in some cases they do not.
I have a couple customers right now that bought trucks that were not the ECR restorations they were described to be, and now the customer is pissed as the trucks are in bad shape.
A truck is a truck, and it doesn't matter who built it as long as it is good.

We could just say that these customers didn't do what they should have (their research), but it is likely hard for a new Rover fan to not trust the guy on the other end of the phone especially when he gives a very convincing story (re-read that email from Creed Evans... even I started to believe it).
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  #6  
Old December 1st, 2008, 09:54 AM
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You need to start putting non-replicable holograms/watermarks on your work.
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  #7  
Old December 1st, 2008, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
We could just say that these customers didn't do what they should have (their research), but it is likely hard for a new Rover fan to not trust the guy on the other end of the phone especially when he gives a very convincing story (re-read that email from Creed Evans... even I started to believe it).
Believing Creed-LOL

Kind of like buying a yacht without a survey
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  #8  
Old December 1st, 2008, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmuller
You need to start putting non-replicable holograms/watermarks on your work.
Or a special tag with a serial number attached with rivets or maybe a certificate of authenticity
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  #9  
Old December 1st, 2008, 12:33 PM
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How do you get through to morons??

So I sent Creed an email that said we didn't build the truck and please do not market it as such"

"I just got this email from a customer, forwarded from you (see below).
I wanted to let you know that we did not build or work on that blue Series truck. I do not recall ever seeing it in our shop.
We didn't do that one, and we don't sell that roll cage, or do 3.54 gears and we have no file on the VIN.
It is not one of ours, please do not market it as such.

Mike Smith, ECR"

... and I get this reply:

"Mr Smith,

This Rover was purchased by John Briggs from you 4 years ago, it came directly from your shop to my shop, and has your stickers and I saw John's paperwork, little hard to believe that Mr Briggs could up with your sticker and phoney paperwork. Maybe you should check your "records" further.

Creed Evans , C.E.O. BSR"

Oh my god... How can people not get it??? I have been here at ECR since day one, since the day I thought up the idea for the company and I have looked at the records and I have a great memory for trucks. It isn't like I missed a few trucks or few years or something. We also have a computer system, hard copy files and records of sales that have to be kept for DMV and such.
We didn't work on that truck, nor did we sell it. I know this for a fact.

Creed sent me 2 pictures (1 of the truck with our 1997 version ECR decal (a decal we ran out of many years ago in favor of the vinyl one we use now)), and 1 of a Bearmach style on top of the capping roll cage (that we supposedly made)).

So that is 2 people in the last 2 weeks that refuse to believe me when I tell them the truck they have wasn't built by ECR.
I'm just amazed that people think I am wrong about these things.

OK, venting over.


Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_lucas
Or a special tag with a serial number attached with rivets or maybe a certificate of authenticity

The tags and such are a funny idea. All people have to do is call or email me.

I'm still just amazed that people think I'm wrong about this stuff. I wonder how many trucks a year they think we put out? I guess they think it is enough so that we wouldn't recall what we did and didn't build.
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  #10  
Old December 1st, 2008, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_lucas
Or a special tag with a serial number attached with rivets or maybe a certificate of authenticity
Maybe an official ECR registry (along with specially created/numbered stickers under the hood/elsewhere)? The registry stays private at ECR, and you only give out "yes, it's an ECR truck" and basic info on upgrades. But this gives ECR added management work that may or may not be wanted.
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  #11  
Old December 1st, 2008, 12:37 PM
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Creed...That is the basic problem right there. He told me he built a 110 from brand new parts and sold it for $85k, he also boasts having 250 defenders sitting in his yard. He also told me that my 110 needed a new frame or it would never drive straight, he said that sight unseen.

Creed, ha ha, thanks for the laugh.
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  #12  
Old December 1st, 2008, 01:07 PM
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We already have a registry.
Its called our computer and our customer files.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMOB
Maybe an official ECR registry (along with specially created/numbered stickers under the hood/elsewhere)? The registry stays private at ECR, and you only give out "yes, it's an ECR truck" and basic info on upgrades. But this gives ECR added management work that may or may not be wanted.
I have tried to do this a little on the ECR site. In the last few months I have started listing the NAS # on the web pages. So instead of the web page being "any Yellow ST" it is now the work done on "Yellow ST #xxx".

Follow-up Post:

Just to keep up the stupidity...
I sent an email to Creed asking for Mr. Briggs contact info. so that I could talk with him about it.
Here is his reply:

"What Could there be to discuss, you said you did not build this Rover and that I am making this all up, I am however forwarding all these emails to John Briggs and I hope you hear from him or his attorney.

At 10:15 AM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
> Creed Evans wrote:
>> Mr Smith,
>>
>> This Rover was purchased by John Briggs from you 4 years ago, it came directly from your shop to my shop
>
> Please give me Mr. Briggs contact information (phone or email). I would like to discuss this with him. "

Follow-up Post:

Is it just me or do small business owners that refer to themselves as CEOs and always talk about "their lawyers" just sound like a-holes?

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by landrovered
Creed... he also boasts having 250 defenders sitting in his yard.
Hasn't he ever heard of Google Earth?

I "google earthed" the old shop in Warren and you can see everything, right down to my old STi sitting the driveway.
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  #13  
Old December 1st, 2008, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Hasn't he ever heard of Google Earth?

I "google earthed" the old shop in Warren and you can see everything, right down to my old STi sitting the driveway.
Not to keep this going or anything.. but a search on the 406-965-3266 number (all over Big Sky Rover's site) reveals a google map of the area..

http://maps.google.com/maps?li=rwp&q...ughn,+MT+59487

Does anyone see anything in that area looking like 250 Defenders? The address info might just be incorrect. Personally, I think a satellite shot of 250 Defenders would be bad-ass.
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  #14  
Old December 1st, 2008, 01:52 PM
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20 Flora Ln, Vaughn, Mt 59487 is a more direct address associated to him... no plethora of rovers there either.. I was just looking for a cool sat. shot of 250 defenders as well!
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  #15  
Old December 1st, 2008, 02:43 PM
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He must have moved them all to the franchisee's yards. Is that like Perot's volunteers?

Follow-up Post:

I count 25 and that is being generous.
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  #16  
Old December 1st, 2008, 02:53 PM
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  #17  
Old December 1st, 2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landrovered
He must have moved them all to the franchisee's yards. Is that like Perot's volunteers?

Follow-up Post:

I count 25 and that is being generous.
the other 225 must have had oil cooler line fires. oh, the humanity.
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  #18  
Old December 1st, 2008, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs
I have a cousin named John....unfortunately he isnt ito Rovers, so its probably not him. You dont want his email address do you?

-Jeff
Nah, thats OK. We'll let you work on getting him into Rovers.

We only have one Briggs in our computer system... and that is YOU!
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  #19  
Old December 1st, 2008, 05:06 PM
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im looking at the pic of of that blue one in post 1, and if you built that, you suck. i can do "suck" myself, i dont need to pay someone for that. it looks like it was slapped together by a drunk... were you drunk? maybe thats why you dont remember it.
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  #20  
Old December 1st, 2008, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREED
To price it, he had me call East Coast and pretend to be a
buyer to find out what they would build another one for, they gave me
a quote for $48,700.
holy crap Mike... what were you trying to do... rip him off?

Can't believe Creed is still in the business.
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