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  #1  
Old November 17th, 2011, 10:55 AM
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Even Wired Magazine knows the DC100 sucks

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/11...onic-defender/http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/11...onic-defender/
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  #2  
Old November 17th, 2011, 11:23 AM
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It cracks me up how militant and aggressive Toyota folk are at trying to convince everyone that there is nothing better than Toyota. And they spend all their energy on attacking Land Rover, versus any other competitor brand. Yet the Rover's keep on selling! It must really bug the crap out of them.
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  #3  
Old November 17th, 2011, 12:35 PM
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Calling the DC100 a "Defender" would be like Porsche introducing their Boxster/Cayman as a "911".
Huge marketing blunder IMO. I doubt they could ever retrofit enough safety/green technology into the Defender platform to continue or re-introduce the real Defender in the states, but why spoil the brand? Actually, after listening to the bullshitfest Land River Jaguar press conference, it shouldn't surprise me that the auto-exec's have their heads buried in the sand. They're only interested in next quarter's profits.

We could call the new one the "Offender".

DC100 probably has a place in the US and I bet it will be sought-after by every college-bound prep-school kid in the US and middle-age adults trying to be "Action Ken/Barbie".

The "over/under" on when we spot the first d-nugget from the Twilight series driving on of these is I'm guessing 1-month after it hits the LRNA inventory. It's all over after that.
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  #4  
Old November 17th, 2011, 12:43 PM
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I like that... Lets start an "Offender" petition! How many signatures do you think we can get to convince LR to do what Jeep and Mercedes did with the Gwagen and just make a damn modern version of the defender without castrating it!
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  #5  
Old November 17th, 2011, 01:44 PM
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If they just call it something other than defender it will do just fine. Have they mentioned a four door version? Seems a bit odd if they don't have one (if they continue the charade of it being a defender replacement).
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  #6  
Old November 17th, 2011, 02:04 PM
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Take one and run a Camel Trophy style event with it and then call me. Oh, and as for porsche 911, the last one was around a 1998 which was the end of the 993. 996/997 and EEK 991 are all not real porsche.
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  #7  
Old November 17th, 2011, 04:57 PM
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Agreed. Air cooled were the last real 911s. So clearly the largest North American contingent of Defender owners is on this forum. Why not put together a petition representing actual Defender owners and the year and number of your trucks. I bet that would get some press if we handled it correctly. Headline reads.... NAS Defenders Owners Veto New Design Dub it the "Offender"
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  #8  
Old November 17th, 2011, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Agreed. Air cooled were the last real 911s. So clearly the largest North American contingent of Defender owners is on this forum. Why not put together a petition representing actual Defender owners and the year and number of your trucks. I bet that would get some press if we handled it correctly. Headline reads.... NAS Defenders Owners Veto New Design Dub it the "Offender"
Yes, nothing like the growl of an air-cooled flat six! I have my 5-year-old boys saying "look, Dad, its a half-a-Porsche" whenever they see a Boxter. In reality the Boxter is a great little sports car. Lot of bang for your buck and not bad quality either. Land Rover should take note. They never played off of the 911 heritage (okay, maybe a little). In the end it didn't dillute the brand, it just invited many thousands more buyers to become brand loyal (who would have otherwise spent their money on 300ZXs or MR2s). In the end, Porsche gambled big with their image (with Boxter and doubled-down with the Cayenne). From a profitability standpoint, they won I think.

Switch gears to the DC100 - It may not appeal to any of us Defender owners, but by broadening the product line, LR/Jag is probably looking to subsidize shrinking profits at the other end of the product line. (when was the last time anyone you knew bought a Jaguar after Ford turned them into "aspiration-mobiles"?)

I'm not "offended" by the design of the DC100. I mean it is "cute" and if my teenager or wife wanted a cool beach rig, I'd fully endorse it. I'm offended because LRNA seems to think that Americans are so retarded that we actually think this is a Defender. the DC-100 is aimed squarely at the North American market. Granted, most Americans think a '93 D-110 is a vintage 1972 Land Rover and have no clue.

So....I hereby declare the DC-100 as "the Offender" until which time LRNA assigns a more appropriate name that exudes the cute, playfull, hello-kittyness of the DC-100. (I see a new thread coming "alternative names for the DC-100")
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  #9  
Old November 17th, 2011, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Agreed. Air cooled were the last real 911s. So clearly the largest North American contingent of Defender owners is on this forum. Why not put together a petition representing actual Defender owners and the year and number of your trucks. I bet that would get some press if we handled it correctly. Headline reads.... NAS Defenders Owners Veto New Design Dub it the "Offender"
That's a great idea. I'm on board with that.
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  #10  
Old November 18th, 2011, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
Take one and run a Camel Trophy style event with it and then call me. Oh, and as for porsche 911, the last one was around a 1998 which was the end of the 993. 996/997 and EEK 991 are all not real porsche.
As the owner of a 996 GT2 I beg to disagree with you. The whole point of the 911 is constant evolution to improve the breed without changing the basic driving experience or drivetrain layout or shape. The whole air-cooled vs. water-cooled debate is pointless - water cooled cars run rings around their air cooled predecessors, get over it.

And yes, I think the new DC100 design sucks. Check out Harry Metcalfe's scathing opinion piece on it in the latest EVO magazine.
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  #11  
Old November 18th, 2011, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
As the owner of a 996 GT2 I beg to disagree with you. The whole point of the 911 is constant evolution to improve the breed without changing the basic driving experience or drivetrain layout or shape. The whole air-cooled vs. water-cooled debate is pointless - water cooled cars run rings around their air cooled predecessors, get over it.

And yes, I think the new DC100 design sucks. Check out Harry Metcalfe's scathing opinion piece on it in the latest EVO magazine.

Sounds like someones a little sensitive...the resale values of the 993 vs 996 tell a different story....
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  #12  
Old November 18th, 2011, 04:02 PM
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A gt2 is not a normal car. Harder to compare.
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Are there shocks that I can addjust up and down like my friends LX460? That would be very cool!
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  #13  
Old November 18th, 2011, 04:14 PM
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[QUOTE=Arjun;311329]As the owner of a 996 GT2 I beg to disagree with you. The whole point of the 911 is constant evolution to improve the breed without changing the basic driving experience or drivetrain layout or shape. The whole air-cooled vs. water-cooled debate is pointless - water cooled cars run rings around their air cooled predecessors, get over it.


My father has a 1996 993 cabrio and it is a fantastic car. In my opinion, it is one of the prettiest Porsches ever made. It's soulful and very involving. My dad's colleague has a Cayenne (the previous model I'm not sure what year). I havent driven it or gone for a ride but my father says that it isn't that comfortable nor does it have a lot of room inside considering the size.

My mother had a 2009 997 Carrera S and that was also a fantastic car. The 996 is incredibly quick, very well built and very comfortable. It lacked some of the character soul that the 993 has but it was excellent to drive.
Then she had a Panamera 4s. Incredible engineering feat. Handles brilliantly but is very big. You don't truly notice its size until you have to pull it into your garage or park it. That was a great car and it was superbly comfortable yet handled very well. Its styling grew on me although it isn't as pretty as the Aston Rapide.

In my opinion (all of this here are my opinions) the 993 is a prettier more involving car but the 997 was very good looking and out performed the 993. Granted the 993 is significantly older than the 997. Both are great cars that embody what Porsche is.
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  #14  
Old November 18th, 2011, 05:27 PM
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I've owned two 993s and one 996, both non-S, both normally-aspirated.
a N/A 996 has depreciated far more than comparable 993.

C2S & C4S are a different story. 996 "S" models have held up well.

I completely agree....GT2&3 are limited-run editions that cannot be compared to off-the-rack turbos and N/A cars. The entire "GT" class and to some extent the 996 "S" cars are rare (at least the good ones).

My 993 was a 15,000 mile targa (and this was in 2007), but if I had to do it over, I'd rather have a 993C2S or 4S with 3X the mileage (they are that hard to come by).
By the same token I wouldn't even look at a another 996 unless it were a GT3/2 or perfect C4S (all the other 996s are a dime a dozen and irrelevent IMO)
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  #15  
Old November 19th, 2011, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Sounds like someones a little sensitive...the resale values of the 993 vs 996 tell a different story....
Not sensitive at all. I buy cars for their driving ability and not as investments. Doesn't matter what I pay for them - its all sunk cost as far as I'm concerned. If I worried about depreciation, I would just buy a poster instead :-)

My comment really was aimed at the rather broad statement evilfij made about 996/997 series cars. There's actually a very well regarded Porsche collector on this board with whom I've had similar debates and even he admits that the 996/997s move the performance envelope so much further on that just being upset about Boxer headlamps on 996s isn't reason enough to say that they aren't real 911s - their very evolution symbolizes the 911 ethos of constant gradual improvement. I think the DC100 is a huge departure from the Defender, while the 996/997 Porsches are true evolution of the 911.

Just 2 cents from a passionate car guy.
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  #16  
Old November 19th, 2011, 11:55 AM
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There is another blog that has the dc100 in white with a black roof in Dubai. Seems there are lots of these running around now.
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  #17  
Old November 19th, 2011, 12:05 PM
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Yeah, it's pretty clear they have decided this is the design they are going with.

I still plan on going up to the LA Show, no one else seemed to interested so Josh and I will probably tool up there on our own, with our Club T-Shirts on.
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  #18  
Old November 19th, 2011, 12:17 PM
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Let me know when you go. I might join
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  #19  
Old November 19th, 2011, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
Not sensitive at all. I buy cars for their driving ability and not as investments. Doesn't matter what I pay for them - its all sunk cost as far as I'm concerned. If I worried about depreciation, I would just buy a poster instead :-)

My comment really was aimed at the rather broad statement evilfij made about 996/997 series cars. There's actually a very well regarded Porsche collector on this board with whom I've had similar debates and even he admits that the 996/997s move the performance envelope so much further on that just being upset about Boxer headlamps on 996s isn't reason enough to say that they aren't real 911s - their very evolution symbolizes the 911 ethos of constant gradual improvement. I think the DC100 is a huge departure from the Defender, while the 996/997 Porsches are true evolution of the 911.

Just 2 cents from a passionate car guy.
Well said indeed!
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  #20  
Old November 19th, 2011, 11:56 PM
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I clipped this very well-stated comment from the UK Defender forum:

Re: New Defender?
Originally Posted by jozg44
But if it was left up to the enthusiasts the Land Rover would still be leaf sprung, the Porsche 911 would still be air-cooled, Citroen would still be only making cars with uppy-downy suspension and crazy steering wheels, VW would still be making the Beetle, the Mini would still be in production (and with no technical development since 1975), Jeep would still be making the CJ7 and Ford would still be making the Mk1 Escort.

All these cars were replaced by more modern alternatives that were hated (with varying degrees of vitriol) by their enthusiasts. Ironically all their replacements went on to build up a significant enthusiast following in their own right. "

It's interesting you mention those cars, as many of them continued living in easily recognised form from their originals, and are even considered essential elements for their manufacturers. Imagine a Porsche without an 911? That would be a sad mistake. Yet that's exactly what Land Rover is doing.

I agree there are some great things about the concept. You mentioned the waterproof carpeting, consoles and materials. If they can seriously pull that off, I will be very impressed.

But it's not just enthusiasts complaining about the shape. I've seen comments from all kinds of people. Even those who do not own Land Rovers. And some of the media has been pretty negative as well. The DC100 is in no way iconic, and valuable brands need their icons. Coca Cola needs their corseted bottle, Burberry their trench, Doctor Who needs its TARDIS. It's what people look up to, and aspire to, it's what gives a brand some special magic that none of its competitors will have.

Now I'm absolutely not saying Land Rover should have a Defender just for halo effects, and not selling. It should be used and abused. I just don't think the task is as difficult as everyone is making it out as. By all means bring in those innovations you mentioned. Consider new platforms and layouts, change the size of the vehicle, get the reliability right (very, very important). Those only increase the value of the vehicle. But to keep it iconic, it should look and feel and work like a continuation or rethinking of a classic (otherwise people will forever want the classic, not the new thing). So keep it as simple and maintainable as humanly possible, have the capability there for serious work, and give it the rough slightly militant look of the Defender that so many love (even if proportions are altered). Do that and it will be loved and sell incredibly well, all while increasing brand value and making all the other Land Rovers seem ever cooler.
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