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  #61  
Old September 22nd, 2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LuisC View Post
Right now, in the back of my head I envision some other car manufacturer scrambling to coverup their tracks. I'm sure VW isn't the only one doing the computer manipulation.
I actually agree with you for once. I had this whole inclination that the EPA was likely setting unrealistic emissions expectations on diesel imports to help protect the domestic automakers who hadn't yet developed much in the way of diesels (they've been focusing on hybrids) for smaller cars. Oddly enough demand for diesels continued to increase domestically as the price of gas continued to rise. Then oil started to fall, and the price of diesel didn't quite fall at the same pace at the pump, which has seemed to stunt the diesel market a little this year as well. I can only assume the EPA was always very skeptical of any of the diesels that somehow passed their emissions tests and focused additional scrutiny their way.
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  #62  
Old September 22nd, 2015, 01:45 PM
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  #63  
Old September 22nd, 2015, 01:52 PM
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X2. Seems to me, the better the economy, the less smog. But then who am I?!
Not as far as NOX goes. To lower NOX, you must take a mileage hit, in a diesel.
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  #64  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 08:15 AM
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I'm not sure where to search for info to answer this question: how much more pollutants does this issue on the VAG cars produce than say my archaic emission controlled 92 RR (approx 12mpg) or my gazillion pound LR3 (approx 16mpg combined) at highway speeds? Lately I find myself doing a lot of driving kid and dog around to various activities, and a TDi Wagon could do many of the things my LR3 doe (except tow the big trailer) and I would imagine there may be a flood of plummeting depreciation affected VAG cars on the market soon....
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  #65  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 08:33 AM
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  #66  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 08:43 AM
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The crazy thing is, this is just the first giant to fall in this scheme. It was pretty widely talked about and accepted while I attended both JLR academy and Audi academy that the vehicles are specifically tuned for the emissions test profile, but that under "normal" driving conditions they operate differently. I think the EPA has just opened a massive can of worms that they may eventually regret. This is going to be like the deflategate of the auto industry.

If VW were smart, they would counter sue right away and rightfully say that their cars passed all of the tests that were administered by the EPA.
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  #67  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
The crazy thing is, this is just the first giant to fall in this scheme. It was pretty widely talked about and accepted while I attended both JLR academy and Audi academy that the vehicles are specifically tuned for the emissions test profile, but that under "normal" driving conditions they operate differently. I think the EPA has just opened a massive can of worms that they may eventually regret. This is going to be like the deflategate of the auto industry.

If VW were smart, they would counter sue right away and rightfully say that their cars passed all of the tests that were administered by the EPA.
Tell us more. You think the big 3 are doing the same? Inquiring minds want to know.
It appears that CARB are the whistle blowers and the EPA are now along for the ride.
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  #68  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
The crazy thing is, this is just the first giant to fall in this scheme. It was pretty widely talked about and accepted while I attended both JLR academy and Audi academy that the vehicles are specifically tuned for the emissions test profile, but that under "normal" driving conditions they operate differently. I think the EPA has just opened a massive can of worms that they may eventually regret. This is going to be like the deflategate of the auto industry.

If VW were smart, they would counter sue right away and rightfully say that their cars passed all of the tests that were administered by the EPA.
From what I hear, there seems to have developed a complicit understanding between the EPA and manufacturers that as long as the cars met the test results, what happened out in the real world was not their concern. This has been going on for decades.
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  #69  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 09:09 AM
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Yes I do think that every car manufacturer is doing the same.

The EPA has a very specific set of prescribed emissions tests which are widely understood to NOT emulate real world driving.

What this means is, auto manufacturers have no choice but to tune their engines to pass the (unrealistic) test.

This has happened before, and guess what? Every major manufacturer was involved. Read more here: How The EPA Won $1 Billion From Diesel Cheaters Long Before VW

------ Follow up post added September 23rd, 2015 09:14 AM ------

"In a good example of the regulatory doublespeak common at the EPA, the engine controllers were said to have “defeated” the emissions standards by ensuring that the engines met precisely the EPA standards using EPA’s tests.

Because the EPA’s engine test focused only on simulating urban driving conditions, however, meeting the test standard allowed the engine controllers to focus on mileage rather than on emissions under highway driving conditions. In effect, the EPA sued the engine manufacturers because the engine makers had not designed their engines to meet a test procedure EPA had not created.

Despite the legal absurdity of the EPA’s position, in 1998 the firms and the EPA signed a $1 billion settlement that tightens the previous regulatory standards and specifies how the industry will regulate emissions of nitrogen oxides (NOx)."

Classic government mentality... VW should be making a phone call to Jeffrey Kessler
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  #70  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 09:33 AM
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TransientMech, the large diesel manufacturers lied to the EPA and paid the price. They were found to be producing 3x the NOX compared to stated EPA tests. VW, 40x, and their deception extends beyond the EPA to every household with a TV, where they have been claiming since 2009 to be the alternative to a Prius.


The class action civil suits, for lying to the consumer who spent billions of dollars on the false product shall grow faster than their web of lies.

The last time VW claimed that they were just doing what everyone else was doing and following orders, my Nana "worked" for them. Within 60 years and billions of dollars of settlements, they finally admitted to their practices. I am certain that they have learned from the past and will settle this in a much faster timeline.
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  #71  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 09:49 AM
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With all respect, I completely disagree.

This is going to grow far beyond VW diesels and will include every major auto manufacturer who will all collectively counter sue the EPA.

The collective language being used around this entire topic is all wrong. VW did not "cheat", "disable", "bypass", or lie about anything. They passed the tests that the EPA prescribed.

The grown up way for this to have been handled, would be for the EPA to acknowledge that there is a flaw in their testing methodology and then fix it.

I wholeheartedly believe that within the week you will see another top 5 global auto mfg also named as a perpetrator. And the dominoes will continue to fall from there.

Even the untouchable Prius could be affected... oh wait it already has ... Toyota Prius Owners Get Green Light For Mileage Ad Claims - Law360

------ Follow up post added September 23rd, 2015 09:54 AM ------

And Kia and Hyundai

Hyundai, Kia pay $100M fine over gas mileage claims

And more.

While the above articles specifically mention gas mileage rather than emissions, the overall concept is the same. Results achieved during EPA testing are not the same as results achieved in real world use.
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  #72  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
I'm in agreement with Adam. I see what they did, but how is that 'wrong' or 'cheating'. Something is amiss here. There seems to be an agenda or ulterior motive at play.

-Jeff
I think the point is that you have a to pass the test and then operate the vehicle in the same configuration.

If the real world results differed significantly from test conditions it wouldn't matter as the tested and subsequently operated configuration passed the test.

Hyundai and kia misrepresented their results ... basically using the most favorable rather than the average they were required to do. They were caught and fined / sued.
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  #73  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 10:43 AM
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VW's responsibility to the end consumer is much more interesting than the EPA fines. Misrepresenting actual vs stated MPG (differing by 5-10mpg) has cost 100s of millions of dollars paid out in civil court per above. Stating that you have a "clean diesel" that spouts out 40x the NOX over the claimed / tested quantity shall be interesting to watch unfold.

I was as excited about the 6 spd manual, diesel, 4motion gulf sport wagon as the next guy. Not anymore.
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  #74  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:01 AM
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You are correct that the liability to the consumer is interesting. However considering there were no hard claims made or no real definition for "Clean Diesel" VW will probably (and IMO should) skate on it. Clean compared to what? Up for interpretation. It's undoubtedly still cleaner than the 1970s diesels that gave the technology a bad name in the USA.
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  #75  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
You are correct that the liability to the consumer is interesting. However considering there were no hard claims made or no real definition for "Clean Diesel" VW will probably (and IMO should) skate on it. Clean compared to what? Up for interpretation. It's undoubtedly still cleaner than the 1970s diesels that gave the technology a bad name in the USA.
Marketing speak to say they meet EPA testing....
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  #76  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:13 AM
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Which they did
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  #77  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:21 AM
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VW CEO just resigned....
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  #78  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
You are correct that the liability to the consumer is interesting. However considering there were no hard claims made or no real definition for "Clean Diesel" VW will probably (and IMO should) skate on it. Clean compared to what? Up for interpretation. It's undoubtedly still cleaner than the 1970s diesels that gave the technology a bad name in the USA.
Or even compared to their own previous products they are clean. I can drove my 2015 wide open and never see a bit of smoke or soot come out the tailpipe, but the older VWs I've seen (especially the ones before CR) roll coal if you drive them flat out.

I just hope I can sneak in a service before they release the new software, so that I have more time to make up my mind what I'm going to do.
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  #79  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:22 AM
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Which they did
I think the point is that you have a to pass the test and then operate the vehicle in the same configuration. It's not allowed to bypass the emission control mechanisms. VW very specifically bypassed the controls when operating under non-test conditions.
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  #80  
Old September 23rd, 2015, 11:24 AM
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Or even compared to their own previous products they are clean. I can drove my 2015 wide open and never see a bit of smoke or soot come out the tailpipe, but the older VWs I've seen (especially the ones before CR) roll coal if you drive them flat out.

I just hope I can sneak in a service before they release the new software, so that I have more time to make up my mind what I'm going to do.
you can always have the ECU updated with a new fuelling pattern afterwards ... you'll be doing exactly what VW have done ... but it's perfectly possible and widely available in Europe.
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