EPA and VW diesels - 'dyno' and 'road' modes - Page 14 - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #261  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 03:16 PM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
What do you think will happen when they test trucks? Yep they will fail too. Do you predict the end of diesel trucks too?

The greater economy that is possible with diesel due to higher energy density makes attractive in countries where gas costs $8 a gallon.

There is a balance between pollution and fuel economy that is adjusted through innovation. The manufacturers will have to do some more innovation. That by itself will exclude US firms as they are the least innovative ...
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #262  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 03:28 PM
Rocky's Avatar
Rocky
Status: Offline
Chris
72 + D1 drivetrain
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colonies Aka Boston
Posts: 8,781
Trucks already went through the this emissions falsification settlement a few years ago.
Would be strange for that to happen again
__________________
A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 03:34 PM
oilburner's Avatar
oilburner
Status: Offline
JL
large pile of parts
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: No guns, no crime, no one
Posts: 504
I find it shocking that we have not seen a comprehensive analysis of the actual environmental impact of these cars from manufacturing to end of life by anyone - Not VW, not the media, and certainly not the EPA.

I calculated that my own TDI has saved me about 20,000 litres of fuel to date. What are the environmental costs of all that extra fuel?

I would bet that the excess emissions over life cycle is a complete farce compared to the environmental impact of driving cars that last half as long and consume a much higher volume of fuel. No one has calculated and compared the cost of extraction, refining, trucking, distribution, storage and dispensing of fuel, and compared actual life cycle length with the other lower emission vehicles.
__________________
JL
1994 Defender 110 300TDI 3 door
Series/Defender 6BT/NV4500 crew cab project (slowly merging with the above)
Diesel-swapped 1994 80 series Land-cruiser
And a difflocked 4wd turbodiesel Lambo
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #264  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 03:34 PM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Trucks already went through the this emissions falsification settlement a few years ago.
Would be strange for that to happen again
I think the issue is the test cycle doesn't accurately represent real world. This is probably a function of manufacturers optimizing for the test at the expense of other conditions. VW did this to the extreme.

The solution here is to add more scenarios to the test; and especially scenarios that have conflicting optimizations. Idle vs high speed vs stop start as examples.
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
  #265  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 03:35 PM
sonoronos's Avatar
sonoronos
Status: Online
Ed
None
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 5,540
Registry
i dunno. punitive damages of this magnitude could easily have major downsides for consumers in how much these cars will cost in the future.

this one isn't a free lunch.
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 03:39 PM
BostonAndy's Avatar
BostonAndy
Status: Offline
Andrew
Moose :: 1985 110
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 355
Registry
ill take a buy back of what I put into the car and walk.
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 03:53 PM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilburner View Post
I find it shocking that we have not seen a comprehensive analysis of the actual environmental impact of these cars from manufacturing to end of life by anyone - Not VW, not the media, and certainly not the EPA.

I calculated that my own TDI has saved me about 20,000 litres of fuel to date. What are the environmental costs of all that extra fuel?

I would bet that the excess emissions over life cycle is a complete farce compared to the environmental impact of driving cars that last half as long and consume a much higher volume of fuel. No one has calculated and compared the cost of extraction, refining, trucking, distribution, storage and dispensing of fuel, and compared actual life cycle length with the other lower emission vehicles.
I would imagine the macro calculations of distribution of vehicle types, fuel consumption, emissions, miles driven are added to the count of cow farts and other pollutants in the determination of man made / influenced emissions. These calculations are used in an attempt to agree and manage emissions at a global level. How successful is another conversation. But if everyone's figures were BS then the model would be BS ... and like forecasting the weather we need to improve the model.

Comparing your vehicle to other vehicles is irrelevant as the models already account for that ... whats important is your vehicle being accurately represented.
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 05:38 PM
oilburner's Avatar
oilburner
Status: Offline
JL
large pile of parts
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: No guns, no crime, no one
Posts: 504
You may imagine that someone is doing that type of analysis, but I very much doubt emissions oversight is that technical or well founded in the US. The EPA rules have historically been heavily influenced by CARB, which was put in place due to specific smog issues due to geography in California, not as a national emissions reduction strategy.

CARB rules have always not really focused on CO2 emissions since they are not a problem in California (not smog). Now we have vehicles that have absolutely terrible actual efficiency (ability to make power with fuel) that are labelled as ULEV or PZEV that are putting out tremendous amounts of CO2 but are "green" due to fancy after-treatment systems. My buddy's Silverado is ULEV.

I agree that VW should have complied with the law, but the limits set by EPA for NOX and CO emissions are arbitrary and were not set while taking into account the increased efficiency and reduced C02 output of a diesel engine.

I do not agree that comparing one vehicle to another is irrelevant and I don't understand your point. As a consumer, I care about environmental impact from cradle to grave, not just tailpipe emissions. I also think that federal rules governing environmental damage should be sound and look at the total impact of things, not just a portion.

Comparing our Subaru to our Volkswagen, one consumes nearly half the energy than the other, and one appears to be much more durable than the other. If federal rules are going to force me to use the more inefficient, crappier technology, I want to be damn sure that this is founded on fact. Maybe it is, but I haven't seen any proof, ever.
__________________
JL
1994 Defender 110 300TDI 3 door
Series/Defender 6BT/NV4500 crew cab project (slowly merging with the above)
Diesel-swapped 1994 80 series Land-cruiser
And a difflocked 4wd turbodiesel Lambo
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 05:49 PM
Rocky's Avatar
Rocky
Status: Offline
Chris
72 + D1 drivetrain
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colonies Aka Boston
Posts: 8,781
Wonder how much the lawyers will get v owners........
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 06:11 PM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilburner View Post
You may imagine that someone is doing that type of analysis, but I very much doubt emissions oversight is that technical or well founded in the US. The EPA rules have historically been heavily influenced by CARB, which was put in place due to specific smog issues due to geography in California, not as a national emissions reduction strategy.

CARB rules have always not really focused on CO2 emissions since they are not a problem in California (not smog). Now we have vehicles that have absolutely terrible actual efficiency (ability to make power with fuel) that are labelled as ULEV or PZEV that are putting out tremendous amounts of CO2 but are "green" due to fancy after-treatment systems. My buddy's Silverado is ULEV.

I agree that VW should have complied with the law, but the limits set by EPA for NOX and CO emissions are arbitrary and were not set while taking into account the increased efficiency and reduced C02 output of a diesel engine.

I do not agree that comparing one vehicle to another is irrelevant and I don't understand your point. As a consumer, I care about environmental impact from cradle to grave, not just tailpipe emissions. I also think that federal rules governing environmental damage should be sound and look at the total impact of things, not just a portion.

Comparing our Subaru to our Volkswagen, one consumes nearly half the energy than the other, and one appears to be much more durable than the other. If federal rules are going to force me to use the more inefficient, crappier technology, I want to be damn sure that this is founded on fact. Maybe it is, but I haven't seen any proof, ever.
At a personal level understanding your contribution to emissions is very relevant data point but not at a macro level.

What I was trying say was that at a macro level --- the estimates for overall emissions need to factor the number of VW, the number of subaru , the number of defenders etc model their emission profile and come up with a big pollution number. The EPA ( or equivalent ) stats and emissions standards theoretically allow models to function. In the UK for instance manufactures are mandated to have average emissions over the range of cars ... hence Aston Martin produced the Cygnet!

ULEV or PZEV use Urea to burn super hot in the catalysts to reduce particulates, unburnt hydrocarbons and reduce other products. They don't solve all issues but they do improve some emissions.

The big issue is the public are not engaged enough to really understand the issues and just blindly by on EPA ratings or buy silverado's that are ULEV to be allowed to use express lanes!
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old April 22nd, 2016, 08:11 PM
don's Avatar
don
Status: Offline
Don Bunnell
'86 110 3dr ST
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rumson, NJ
Posts: 4,272
Registry
Great posts/points JL and LeastOnce :
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old January 9th, 2017, 08:56 PM
Viton's Avatar
Viton
Status: Offline
Deaf Ember
Smart 4x4
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: La
Posts: 1,231
FBI Arrests Volkswagen Executive in Emissions Scandal

FBI Arrests Volkswagen Executive in Emissions Scandal - WSJ
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old January 9th, 2017, 09:31 PM
The_Vermonster's Avatar
The_Vermonster
Status: Offline
Gordon
1984 110 CSW
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Lawrenceville, NJ
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viton View Post
FBI Arrests Volkswagen Executive in Emissions Scandal

FBI Arrests Volkswagen Executive in Emissions Scandal - WSJ
http://www.morningstar.com/advisor/t...m?&single=true

Non paywall version of the article.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old October 20th, 2017, 12:24 AM
phoenix37's Avatar
phoenix37
Status: Offline
john
97 D90 ST / 1957 S1 109/ 1983 LS110
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Venice, CA/Yarmouth,ME
Posts: 5,790
Registry
Found this interesting..

How toxic is your car exhaust? - BBC News
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old October 20th, 2017, 10:26 AM
don's Avatar
don
Status: Offline
Don Bunnell
'86 110 3dr ST
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rumson, NJ
Posts: 4,272
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Very interesting read. Crazy how that Skoda diesel was cleaner than the VW gas.

I read the VW book "Faster, Higher, Farther" recently and it seems the testing procedures are totally lab based. Also it in Europe offenders don't get much of a punishment. VW came really close to getting away with what they did in the US. What's crazy is the fix wouldn't have taken much and only used up more space in the storage area/trunks of the cars.

I find it odd that in this day and age the mobile testing is difficult to source like the writer found out. I feel like there could be a lot more to find the true/real world emission amounts.

Another big factor is the architecture of towns and cities. Strip malls with big box stores are designed for cars. Add the shear amount of vehicles on the roads in over populated areas which leads to traffic and idling cars. And modern cars are so easy to drive and have so many comforts why not drive from stop to stop? I feel like emissions are a big issue but there are a lot of other factors in air quality as well.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat

Tags
diesel, mod

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dyno tuning ECU... Doug Defender Technical Discussions 16 September 11th, 2009 03:26 PM
Taking the D-90 to the Dyno sflash868 Defender Technical Discussions 4 May 22nd, 2008 02:38 PM
New EPA laws shawnpalmer Misc. Chit-Chat 2 May 14th, 2008 10:45 AM
97 NAS D90 dyno daze ECR Defender Technical Discussions 22 May 12th, 2007 07:55 PM
EPA/DOT Compliance? gtg067i Misc. Chit-Chat 4 April 18th, 2006 04:07 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:12 PM.


Copyright