Ecr 4.6 V8 - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old February 8th, 2006, 07:53 PM
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Jeff Sturgis
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Ecr 4.6 V8

ECR is offering new 4.6s for the tidy sum of $6,900. Nontypical for them, these fully dressed engines are being sold via mail order. They do not mention anything about it being chipped with the higher performance EFI hardware, so I am guessing that this is not their full "Pursuit" package.

Are these reasonably priced?

My D-90 is at 95,000 and RRC LWB at 125,000 respectively on the odometer. I continually toy with the concept of a 300 Tdi or Powerstroke 2.8 for the Defender when the stock 3.9 requires a rebuild. I am considering a 4.6 upgrade for either truck depending on which engine gives up the ghost first. This may present a solution depending how economical a drop in price ends up.

I would be interested and appreciate thoughts about this approach from those that have already gone down this path or have considered engine upgrades and replacements.
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  #2  
Old February 8th, 2006, 08:53 PM
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Yikes!

(a) that price seems a little on the steep side to me, and

(b) they're set up for the later Bosch engine management systems that are on the P38a and Disco2, aren't they?
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  #3  
Old February 9th, 2006, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Armstrong
...and (b) they're set up for the later Bosch engine management systems that are on the P38a and Disco2, aren't they?
According to ECR's information as posted, yes. If the engine goes into a RRC or Defender, then it needs to be modified for the 14 CUX or GEMS depending on the EFI you are using.

Obviously this is additional expense on top of the price they are quoting. I am sure there are other issues that would make the number roll up further north. I have never done a complete scrub of what it all involves and the associated expenses, but others on this forum have done engine swaps and upgrades and would know best.
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  #4  
Old February 9th, 2006, 08:54 AM
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Well, 2 things...firstly, a properly maintained LR V8 is capable of easily over 200K miles...so if your stuff is in decent shape you may be waiting a while. Secondly, for $6900 you will get a nice engine but with the conversion you will have to do you will spend more money and also be buying a lot of parts you don't need. I would look for a 4.6 short block and rebuild your heads and go that route. You can probably do the whole job for less than $7000 assuming you pay someone else to put it in, even less if you do it yourself.
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Old February 9th, 2006, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
...firstly, a properly maintained LR V8 is capable of easily over 200K miles...so if your stuff is in decent shape you may be waiting a while.
I would like to be able to get that kind of endurance out of both engines. Since both of my trucks were purchased used ( D-90 with 93,000 miles already on it) it is somewhat of an unknown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
...You can probably do the whole job for less than $7,000 assuming you pay someone else to put it in, even less if you do it yourself.
Doing it myself is the only way it makes sense if I was going to go the route with purchasing the complete engine from ECR. The appeal of buying the entire new engine was the concept of paying for the parts and avoiding a ton of labor.

Thanks for the good feedback Rob. Any guess what it could cost in parts to go from the Bosch EFI set up on the 4.6 to the 14CUX?

The idea of purchasing the engine now and shelving it for years is not very appealing.
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  #6  
Old February 9th, 2006, 12:55 PM
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Robert Ragland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
Well, 2 things...firstly, a properly maintained LR V8 is capable of easily over 200K miles...so if your stuff is in decent shape you may be waiting a while. Secondly, for $6900 you will get a nice engine but with the conversion you will have to do you will spend more money and also be buying a lot of parts you don't need. I would look for a 4.6 short block and rebuild your heads and go that route. You can probably do the whole job for less than $7000 assuming you pay someone else to put it in, even less if you do it yourself.
Interesting you make the 200k comment. I have always heard similar from actual mechanics, but ECR makes it sound as if the camshaft is well worn by 100k. Sure, there is a sales element. But, what does one typically find when tearing apart rover engines. Excluding the ones with the 15,000 mile oil change intervals, I'm curious as to where the truth lies. There seems to be more variation with these than the typical small block. Is the difference the aluminum and the temps at which it runs?

Mine seems to run below par about half the time, and has done so since I bought it with 24k on the clock. The sporadic engine codes alone are enough to make one pine for a diesel. A definitive maintenance guide would be handy. As we all have learned, an error for the O2 sensor may or may not mean a bad sensor. It is miserable for the typical owner lacking a mechanics workship.

It is interesting ECR is selling off the 4.6 units. At one time they insisted all work with them be done in shop. Perhaps they are phasing these out in favor of the 300 Tdi.
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  #7  
Old February 9th, 2006, 02:01 PM
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I don't know about the 300TDI phase out. They had a message that they no longer offered the service due to poor demand and then several months later started doing them again.

It's ECR. I like the site, but wouldn't want to wait for the work to be done...

EwS
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  #8  
Old February 9th, 2006, 03:00 PM
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I have 175K on my 3.9. Bought the truck new in 1994. Change the oil every 3K-5K miles and run 15w40 Shell Rotella T. Over it's life the engine has had a rear main seal replaced, the intake and valve cover gaskets replaced and some exhaust gaskets replaced. The timing chain was done as a maintenance item at 120K. The heads have never been off...still running the original steel shim head gaskets. There was some seepage from the head gaskets on long trips but that stopped after the radiator was replaced. The cam looked fine when I changed the intake gasket. The truck still runs strong and has only thrown a couple of Check Engine lights in the 12 years I have owned it. I fully expect to get at least another 75K out of it. Keeping on top of things and fixing them when they break is key along with GOOD clean oil...I don't much care for 5w30 or 10w30 in this application.

To take a Bosch or Gems 4.6 and convert it to a 14CUX:
1) remove all of the injection, front cover, valve covers, cam shaft, oil pan/pickup, timing chain set, and the heads if they are the Air Injection type. Put the excess parts on ebay to sell. Keep the short block and lifters if they are new.
2) Assemble the short block with a new cam/lifters that is compatible with the distributor drive gear, new timing chain, your rebuilt heads, your injection components, your front cover/distributor, reuse your valve covers. Put a "performance dimple" in the oil pan and reuse it. You will have to fabricate a spacer to allow your crank pulley to work with the longer 4.6 crank (I have extras if you need one).
3) Put the truck back together. Changing the chip is not required...the fuel map is big enough to deal with it.
Basically, the hard parts that you really need are the short block, cam/lifters, and timing chain set (double roller prefered)...your current engine has all the rest of the parts that you really need. If you buy a fully dressed engine, you will not use half of what you bought. That said, new 4.6 engines of any sort are hard to come by...so if you gotta have new, this may be the way to go. To do a short block you will realistically spend $1200 to $1800+ for parts on top of the cost of the engine and any labor. Figure ~$350 for head recon, ~$200 for a cam, ~$100 for lifters, ~$100 for a timing set, ~$300 for a clutch kit, plus seals, gaskets, head bolts, fluids, filters, belts, hoses, and misc and worn parts.
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  #9  
Old February 9th, 2006, 03:23 PM
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Great info, Rob. I appreciate the detailed punch list.

I would love to get the longevity that you are talking about, which would let me push off such a purchase in the not to distant future. The major issue aside from the initial purchase is the one you metioned, namely the availability of 4.6 engines, and new ones at that.

Not sure how ECR got those 4.6 factory new, but I would like to buy a long term option on a new one. Five years from now I will probably be scrambling to find one. You know how that goes.
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  #10  
Old February 9th, 2006, 05:57 PM
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I've got another reasonably high mileage 3.9 V-8 in my Range Rover - 198,000 miles and the only thing I've EVER had to do to the motor is two water pumps (around 90K miles each), plugs and plug wires, O2 sensors (at 150K) and exhaust flange gaskets. Regular oil changes are the key to longevity with this motor. Even the valve covers have never been off my engine - it still runs strong and gets reasonable mileage. I met a guy in England years ago who had over 500,000 miles on his Range Rover with only one valve job during that time. I use 10W-30W Castrol and change at 3300 mile intervals.
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  #11  
Old February 9th, 2006, 08:27 PM
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4.6 short block, a 93-95 RRC chip, and a crower cam and you are good to go. Even at retail that is not that expensive.
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  #12  
Old February 9th, 2006, 09:37 PM
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I like the way you are thinking Ron. If I can take care of the beast and get another 150,000 out of it like Rob and Jack are talking about, then I would feel like I beat the odds.
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Old February 9th, 2006, 09:41 PM
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For another option, why not give D&D a call and have him build you up a 4.9 Stroker from a 3.9 block.

-Hans
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Old February 9th, 2006, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
For another option, why not give D&D a call and have him build you up a 4.9 Stroker from a 3.9 block.
What, are you trying to get me in trouble with the local jandarme for actually exceeding the speed limit in a Rover?

Every time I do the analysis on a 300 Tdi conversion, I cannot come up with a plausable story to pitch to the CFO. The 4.6 was a consideration in that it could be a replacement for either the RRC or the D-90. ECR is just not in the cards since I am on the west coast and their cost exceeds my budget.

I have not seen a new complete 4.6 offered before and wanted to gauge where ECR's asking price was compared to what other folks here think is on par.

I know Hans, soon you will have me looking at a 5.2 with a MegaSquirt.
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  #15  
Old February 10th, 2006, 08:34 AM
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I saw an article recently where a guy in England put one of the latest generation aluminum Chevrolet LT-1 V-8 engines in an E-30 BMW body. He was going to use a Rover V-8 engine he had lying around but said the new Chevy engine was an inch narrowerer and two inches shorter - hmmmm....

5.7 liter aluminum V-8 - can be bought brand new in the crate for $3500 - tempting..
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Old February 10th, 2006, 10:29 AM
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Found this on Ebay....
http://cgi.ebay.com/Range-Rover-Land...QQcmdZViewItem
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  #17  
Old February 10th, 2006, 11:42 AM
Eric Siepmann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackW
I saw an article recently where a guy in England put one of the latest generation aluminum Chevrolet LT-1 V-8 engines in an E-30 BMW body. He was going to use a Rover V-8 engine he had lying around but said the new Chevy engine was an inch narrowerer and two inches shorter - hmmmm....

5.7 liter aluminum V-8 - can be bought brand new in the crate for $3500 - tempting..
It is very tempting. Still would have to address the rest of the drive train. Be nice to have a 1 ton transmission and stronger axles. . .
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Old February 10th, 2006, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadsiderob
I wonder if RPi would offer these at a lower price point if we did a group purchase. Don't you have a shipping container originating in the U.K. with some room for us to stick some 4.6s in Rob?

Thanks for the heads up and link.
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Old February 10th, 2006, 12:29 PM
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I've also strongly considered a Chevy block myself as well, especially since this is a varient of a GM engine.... But I just can't bring myself to do that yet, mainly because I would want a new tranny at the same time.

-Hans
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  #20  
Old February 10th, 2006, 11:26 PM
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Shop for a used 4.2 Rover engine maybe for around $1500 to $2000, from the years that have the hot wire 14CUX -- '93 to '96 I think. The 4.2 was a higher HP engine than the 4.6. It's pretty much a plug and play into an existing 14CUX truck. Very reliable. Then later, when you need to do the heads or have some cash lying around, put a high performance cam in it. Should be very pleased.

Doug W.
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