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  #1  
Old June 8th, 2004, 11:30 PM
redrover

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Thumbs up drive train custom mods

HI Chris ,I am writting this in hope that this site could add a link above for the vast options in drive train upgrades that members are now designing. I know several 90 owners who are trying to look at these drive train options , but cant find enough good photos and parts list. I for one have searched the pirates board and am still foggy. It would be killer to see great photos and writeups to compare between rigs such as Tisdale frontend and Buckon 37 front end etc etc. I am comitted to a bomber axle mod , but need real details.
It would be nice to show a Ford 9 front/rear : Dana 60f/r ;dana 44f/r: salsF/R : High pinion Low pinion etc etc: high steer or what ever they have done. I know that a good many rock crawlers on this site are considering these real world setups so it would be cool to put them all together some where. Rock on JP
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  #2  
Old June 9th, 2004, 01:21 AM
tbmcneill

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JP-
I think thats a good idea. Over the next 3 or 4 months there's probably going to be a lot more info out there than there than there is now (not to mention some healthy debate/discussion ... hopefully). There are lots things currently under development (by us & others) that are going to provide people with some really great options.

Currently, AFAIK the only 'drop-in' (as in non-custom ... ie- 'stock' product that companies are currently offering) options that you can buy today on June 8 are NSOs 9" (not sure of spline count on NSOs axles, but a stock 9" could be had with a 31-spline 1.5" axle ... for some reason, I think they're offering a Dana 60 style 35-spline axle as an option?) & our Salisbury (essentially a 35-spline Dana 60 ... axles, again, are 1.5" diameter). The 9" was originally designed as a 1/2-ton axle, but has some pretty cool design features like a pinion support bearing & a HUGE pinion gear (as in bigger than a 60). A Dana 60 was originally designed as a 1-ton axle & has a 9.75" ring gear diameter compared to the 9s 9". The pinion shafts are 1.625" on the Sals/60 and 1.313" on a 9". A 9" is lighter than a Dana 60 by approximately 75 lbs (according to Currie) & has ~1" or so better ground clearance than current Sals/60 designs available for rovers. Both axles are incredibly strong .... especially with all the aftermarket product that goes into them & you'll find recreational and competion guys outside the LR community running both with good success.

That's some of the, hopefully unbiased, high points for some 'starter' comparison.

Hopefully it helps some-
Troy
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  #3  
Old June 9th, 2004, 12:45 PM
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Yousef Hamzeh
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I'm also looking forward for some good info. The last 9 vs. 60 debate wasn't that good as there were some bias opinions.

I was going to install Dynatrac pro60's with front CV's under my rig but they wouldn't do the 5 on 6.5 bolts pattern. However, they did build one for a LR and they said it was pita to drill the hub for that bolt pattern don't know why though.

I still want to hear about the toy stuff up front as I think that will be the ultimate solution up front along with the Sals. rear.
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  #4  
Old June 9th, 2004, 01:09 PM
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Sorry I missed your original post here JP. This is a great idea as (from my post in the Tech section) I too am looking into this info for my own truck.

I guess one thing that woul dhelp is if current discussions have info like this you found helpful, using the "rate this thread" feature really help identify a thread to me faster that should be noted when the new F.A.Q. v2 section starts getting populated all these types of posts will be migrated into the appropiate sections. Last night I just installed and started testing a new Article management component that integrates with this fourm, that might be another good feature for such write ups.
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  #5  
Old June 9th, 2004, 01:56 PM
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Johnathan Tisdale
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JP there isn't a ton of info out there yet mainly because a lot of what is going on is R&D particularly on the front end options(My 9/60 hybrid is the first one done by NSO and only one of two that I know of at all) . As McNeill mentioned the 9" and 60 options are the emerging heavy duty hardware options for rovers. Others exist like Eatons, FJ80 axles, 101 axles, Mog axles, hybrids, and drop in toyota 3rds. More companies than you realize are creating options: Rovertracks, NSO, Rockware, Sunray, and SG to name a few. As you probably saw, I posted pictures of my 9/60 parts on Pirate. I will give more details in a write up with pictures once my rig returns(in route as we speak) and I get to test it out. One correction on Troy's post, the 31 spline Ford is not quite 1.5" diameter, my front 9" with dana 60 outers is 35 spline which does measure 1.5", the rear is 35 spline also(although now you can get 40 spline 1.7"). I personally chose to go with the 9"s because they are already strong, light, and options are available. If you look at this years trend in rock crawling, many comp guys are building 9/60s for their buggies, and it looks like a few guys are working on a true high pinion case which would be sweet. Anyway, look for info from me in the next few weeks, I plan on testing these axles at the rally in Tennessee at the end of June.

Tis

PS- That is me standing in your avitar isn't it.
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  #6  
Old June 9th, 2004, 02:57 PM
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Yousef Hamzeh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteD90
PS- That is me standing in your avitar isn't it.

Tis, that was our trip to Moab, and yes that's you spotting on white knuckle hill.
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  #7  
Old June 9th, 2004, 03:56 PM
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This is a good thread to have but there is so much new stuff coming out that it is going to be hard to keep current! I know BCB and Rovertrax have some really exciting things in the works that I can't wait for. It really is a good time to own one of these trucks. Not to jump on anyone, but the 31 spline Ford stuff is 1.37in- or is that 1.32? The NSO option is a full floater which is very cool, but there are some draw backs too. And the 9in is a 3/4 ton, not 1/2 and it is rated that way not for the diff at all but for the weight the stock axle housing can handle. The diff is remarkably strong. I think that in a little while the real craze is going to be Mog/9in. I don't know if it is humanly possible to break a Portal axle with 40 spline shafts. Of course, that just means your going to break you drive-shaft or your t-case output shaft. Its a nice expensive hobby we have picked, huh?
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  #8  
Old June 9th, 2004, 04:29 PM
redrover

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Yep Tis that is you on white knuckle. that trip was the last chance a rover axle case had to redeem it self for you guys huh? Well it is great that you guys are the R&D for these hybrid axles. I want to experiment with the ideas/parts , but dont want to spent unnessessary cash building something that wont fit right. So hurry up. Take it easy <rock on > JP
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  #9  
Old June 9th, 2004, 08:09 PM
tbmcneill

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One correction on Troy's post, the 31 spline Ford is not quite 1.5" diameter, my front 9" with dana 60 outers is 35 spline which does measure 1.5", the rear is 35 spline also(although now you can get 40 spline 1.7").
I'm going to have to disagree with Tisdale on this one. Granted, I've never measured one first hand, but, according to www.4x4wire.com & www.wfo-offroad.com the Ford 9" axles DID come with a full 1.5" 31 spline axle. Most people building hybrids go with the Dana 60 35-spline axle because of the increase in strength at the splines.

Comparisons to other axles
--------------------Chrysler 9.25"-------Dana 35c--------Dana 44-------Dana 60------ Ford 9"----------- Ford 8.8
Ring Gear Dia.:-------- 9.25"------------- 7.5625"--------8.5" ------------ 9.75"----------- 9"-----------------8.8"
Pinion Shaft Dia.: -----1.875"-------------1.406"---------1.375"----------- 1.625" -------1.313" ----------1.625"
Axle Shaft Diameter
& Spline Count: -------1.32 / 31-------1.16" / 27--------1.31" / 30 -----1.31" / 30------1.19" / 28--------1.32 / 31"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.5" / 35-------1.50" / 31


Also ... with regards to the 9" being a 1/2-ton or 3/4-ton axke ... again, I'm going off heresay by what I've read and by what I've been told by the folks at Currie on that one. Either way, David is right with regards to the ring and pinion strength & due to all the aftermarket upgrades available (for 9" and 60s, for that matter) we're no longer talking about "stock" axles. The pinion support bearing and the shear size of the pinion gear makes the 9" a viable choice & is the reason you see many rigs starting to run them .... especially with 60-style outers.

As Tisdale mentioned, there are a lot of other axles out there that are under development, but again, AFAIK, to date, NSO and RT are the only 2 selling a 'drop-in' axle. You can certainly have custom axles made for you, though. And, there a lot of good companies out there that can build any axle to your specs .... all it takes is enough time and $$$.

Troy
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  #10  
Old June 9th, 2004, 10:32 PM
redrover

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little one

Hi troy, thanks for additional info. I did not notice the avitar earlier, but do you have a little girl now? Congrats. JP
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  #11  
Old June 9th, 2004, 11:02 PM
tbmcneill

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JP-
yeah ... she came (1.5 months early) last October. She gave us some scares early on with some breathing issues and an infection, but is doing great now.

Lets see .... as for Rover content ... Her first baby gift was a Defender 110 toy from a friend in NC. Never hurts to start them early.
T
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  #12  
Old June 10th, 2004, 10:38 PM
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Johnathan Tisdale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbmcneill
I'm going to have to disagree with Tisdale on this one. Granted, I've never measured one first hand, but, according to www.4x4wire.com & www.wfo-offroad.com the Ford 9" axles DID come with a full 1.5" 31 spline axle. Most people building hybrids go with the Dana 60 35-spline axle because of the increase in strength at the splines.

Comparisons to other axles
--------------------Chrysler 9.25"-------Dana 35c--------Dana 44-------Dana 60------ Ford 9"----------- Ford 8.8
Ring Gear Dia.:-------- 9.25"------------- 7.5625"--------8.5" ------------ 9.75"----------- 9"-----------------8.8"
Pinion Shaft Dia.: -----1.875"-------------1.406"---------1.375"----------- 1.625" -------1.313" ----------1.625"
Axle Shaft Diameter
& Spline Count: -------1.32 / 31-------1.16" / 27--------1.31" / 30 -----1.31" / 30------1.19" / 28--------1.32 / 31"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.5" / 35-------1.50" / 31


Also ... with regards to the 9" being a 1/2-ton or 3/4-ton axke ... again, I'm going off heresay by what I've read and by what I've been told by the folks at Currie on that one. Either way, David is right with regards to the ring and pinion strength & due to all the aftermarket upgrades available (for 9" and 60s, for that matter) we're no longer talking about "stock" axles. The pinion support bearing and the shear size of the pinion gear makes the 9" a viable choice & is the reason you see many rigs starting to run them .... especially with 60-style outers.

As Tisdale mentioned, there are a lot of other axles out there that are under development, but again, AFAIK, to date, NSO and RT are the only 2 selling a 'drop-in' axle. You can certainly have custom axles made for you, though. And, there a lot of good companies out there that can build any axle to your specs .... all it takes is enough time and $$$.

Troy
Your right...my mistake
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  #13  
Old June 10th, 2004, 11:59 PM
redrover

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Troy, have you heard anything about a anti deflector bushing/guide that could keep the GBR pinion from deflecting under major load? I wonder if available, if it would have saved all those trashed 4.7 sets and even some 4.10 . JP
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  #14  
Old June 11th, 2004, 01:30 AM
tbmcneill

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Troy, have you heard anything about a anti deflector bushing/guide that could keep the GBR pinion from deflecting under major load? I wonder if available, if it would have saved all those trashed 4.7 sets and even some 4.10
No, I haven't. Offhand, I can't think of a way one could even build an aftermarket item like that into the diff. If there is such a product out there, I'd love to take a look at it. IMHO, though, I don't think it would make much of a difference. There's just no way around the poor design of the rover diff. To be stronger, you've got to have a bigger tooth engagement area by either using a hypoid design or using bigger gear sets .... &, preferably, a combination of the two.

You'll get varying opinions on this & I've never seen a controlled study to back either side up. But, personally, I don't think the deflection issue is a big cause of broken gear sets. All things being equal, the better the tooth engagement under the load (ie- the contact area of the ring & pinion maximized), the lower the chance of a failure. So, in theory, an 'anti-deflection' device/support bearing, whatever ... would help. But, you're going to have a LOT of deflection to significantly decrease the contact area of the ring and pinion. There maybe a better chance of it happening on a standard rotation front diff since the ring and pinion are trying to push themselves apart slightly. But, I just don't see it happening with the current designs... & especially when you get to the bigger hypoid style gearsets combined with the strength of many of the housings available now.

Just my $0.01's worth-
T
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  #15  
Old June 11th, 2004, 09:08 AM
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Johnathan Tisdale
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Some of the new true hi pinion ford 9" designs are using this type of deflector called a thrustblock.
http://p2.hostingprod.com/@truehi9.com/Thrustblock.html

Tis
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