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  #21  
Old October 7th, 2009, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
I think most people here can clearly see the difference between a cool project that was "built" and a truck that got a VIN swap.
It is the line between the two that gets fuzzy.
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  #22  
Old October 7th, 2009, 12:51 PM
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Doug can I borrow your gnomes for a bit, got a few details to sort out on my rig.
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  #23  
Old October 7th, 2009, 01:07 PM
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if its a legitimate question, who cares the source.

if its a legitimate question of the legality of a vehicle being sold, and the OP bitches to the MOD, the MOD needs to either deny the request for an edit, or he needs to pull the ad and warn the OP. while its true trucks have been grey marketed/vin swapped for some time, this is a publicly viewed forum, and non members may be shopping. to delete pertinent information is to knowingly and willfully aid and abet a crime. someone new and not very savy may end up with a rig in a state that hasnt any leniency, and at the price of the one in question, does anyone really want to be a party to that?

frankly, i think the litmus test is real easy. if the guy is has to hide something because of a question of legality... its illegal. theres veeeery veeeery little grey here. if i was the site owner, id be alllll over that shit.

once again, its not even a matter of being judgmental about the truck or the builder... hell... id love that truck... but if i built it, it would be a keeper and i wouldnt sell it.... its inappropriate to pass your lapses in judgment to unsuspecting buyers. that makes you a perp, and them a victim.
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  #24  
Old October 7th, 2009, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
. but having said that I never post such things in people's for sale adverts. It is up to the buyer to become educated.
Just my .02.

Love Doug's post.
this sums up my point. Mike has tact, and expects others to educate them selves, there is a ton of info out there, all you have to do is look. D90 source is not dweb, and I really appriciate that.
But as more and more yahoos creep in there are the bad sellers which and more members who flame for the sake of flaming...



Ron- I don't know either, I just like the 'old school' feel of this forum. People who love rovers not BS around the fringe.

Doug- I couldn't agree more.
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  #25  
Old October 7th, 2009, 01:45 PM
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zimm, you are wrong when you say there is not alot of gray. There is so much gray that it is impossible to really tell when a line has been crossed that may someday be called out by some official. The only thing without some element of gray is a bone stock NAS vehicle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zimm
i theres veeeery veeeery little grey here.
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  #26  
Old October 7th, 2009, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D90user
there are the bad sellers which and more members who flame for the sake of flaming...
Sellers bring it on themselves as well.
You have a "grey" truck, fine... just sell it as such. Don't try to BS the guys on this board:

"2001 D110 imported as a 1978 Series III and titled as such" is something no one on this board would flame. The seller told the truth, everyone knows the associated risks, buy if you want, move on if you don't.

but... if the n00b with 1 post is selling his 110 and says:
"Fully restored 1978 Series III, rebuilt on 2001 D110 frame" etc etc etc then he is likely gonna get it, especially when the photos show just a 110 with a SIII VIN tag popped on it.
Maybe that is undeserved because said n00b bought the truck out of the UK and they told him they "rebuilt it" and he found out just what that meant when he got it, but in most cases the seller has got to know just what he has and I think it is an insult to the folks who know better and I can't blame them at all for speaking up with. "Hey n00b... nice try."

I don't see many grey areas. IMO it is dead easy to tell a truck that was built vs. on that is a pure VIN swap.... but that is just me.
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  #27  
Old October 7th, 2009, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimm
if its a legitimate question of the legality of a vehicle being sold, and the OP bitches to the MOD, the MOD needs to either deny the request for an edit, or he needs to pull the ad and warn the OP. while its true trucks have been grey marketed/vin swapped for some time, this is a publicly viewed forum, and non members may be shopping. to delete pertinent information is to knowingly and willfully aid and abet a crime. someone new and not very savy may end up with a rig in a state that hasnt any leniency, and at the price of the one in question, does anyone really want to be a party to that?
Don't misinterpret - if someone says "you're an asshole and your price is too high" I'll probably delete that, since all that is there is an opinion that pisses on someone's classified ad.

If the question is legit, even if accusatory in tone like "its a VIN-swap right?" then I'll just let it be.

I really don't like deleting things since it screws up the discourse, and trolls have feelings too.
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  #28  
Old October 7th, 2009, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching
zimm, you are wrong when you say there is not alot of gray. There is so much gray that it is impossible to really tell when a line has been crossed that may someday be called out by some official. The only thing without some element of gray is a bone stock NAS vehicle.
no. really there isnt. the bureaucracies that deal with this shit arnt filled with guys that fell off the boat yesterday.

vin swapping is illegal and selling such a truck is fraud.

you can do a simple self check. if you wouldnt walk up to the feds and tell the 100% truth as to the part origin and history of the build of your rig as for fear of what they would say, your rig is illegal and you know it.

dont confuse what you like to be the truth, with the truth.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
and trolls have feelings too.
why thank you, im vachlempt....
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  #29  
Old October 7th, 2009, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching
Doug can I borrow your gnomes for a bit, got a few details to sort out on my rig.
Sure man whats mine is yours you know that.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by D90user

Doug- I couldn't agree more.
Cool.
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  #30  
Old October 7th, 2009, 04:36 PM
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For what it's worth.my 2C. I feel there is a huge difference in a privately vehicle built using whatever upgrades that are needed whether bulkhead or new chassi vs. an enterprise building LR swapping vin plates to sell on the market for profit at bulk. It also seems to me that citizens are being regulated to death in my view to benefit lobbyists politicians and vehicle manufacturers, all the while our tax dollars are being spent to "bail out" banks, auto industry, insurance co's and good old cronies. What I fail to see is the "fine line" of the definition of "fraud" according to the feds when they have and still fail to regulate ANY of the financial giants that have been robbing the public blind and have perpetuated the financial instability of our country. Yet we as citizens must certainly FEAR upgrading or improving LR's.....we don't want to jeopardize the US auto market with a 4X4 that actually make sense or diesel engines that could compromise the oil industry's supply and demand here do we? I guess if I ever want to build a hybrid I'll have to settle being called an outlaw or "fraud" by the "powers that be" that define fraud here in the USA.
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  #31  
Old October 7th, 2009, 05:18 PM
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You got it all wrong, noob. The stuff you think is legal and should be legal may not be, because some guy on the wrong end of your paperwork is having a bad day. If you walk up to the feds etc as you say, even if you are 100% legit they can still make your life miserable and don't think for a second they won't. That is where the gray exists. It helps them, not us. The stuff that is plainly illegal is as you say. I'm not trying to rationalize around that. Read my post again. Or don't, don't really care.

Marc has it down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimm
no. really there isnt. the bureaucracies that deal with this shit arnt filled with guys that fell off the boat yesterday.

vin swapping is illegal and selling such a truck is fraud.

you can do a simple self check. if you wouldnt walk up to the feds and tell the 100% truth as to the part origin and history of the build of your rig as for fear of what they would say, your rig is illegal and you know it.

dont confuse what you like to be the truth, with the truth.

Follow-up Post:


why thank you, im vachlempt....
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  #32  
Old October 7th, 2009, 05:53 PM
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Right on Marc.
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  #33  
Old October 7th, 2009, 08:13 PM
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Doug, I love it!

I agree with Keyser Söze...
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  #34  
Old October 8th, 2009, 01:37 AM
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Sorry, that was me who made the "irksome" comment/question. I get excited when I hear about a 'nut and bolt' restoration. (think project Zambesi or ECR-which one of my former 110's #69/500 has gone for the treatment after I sold it) And even more excited to see one of these with a Tdi that is for sale! Then I saw the pics... Then I asked the question... I wasn't trying to 'lambast' the seller, hell, I would like that truck! But simply say what it really is that's all.
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  #35  
Old October 8th, 2009, 01:12 PM
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Ask the questions. Do not worry about what others think. I never do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MEUSOC
Sorry, that was me who made the "irksome" comment/question. I get excited when I hear about a 'nut and bolt' restoration. (think project Zambesi or ECR-which one of my former 110's #69/500 has gone for the treatment after I sold it) And even more excited to see one of these with a Tdi that is for sale! Then I saw the pics... Then I asked the question... I wasn't trying to 'lambast' the seller, hell, I would like that truck! But simply say what it really is that's all.
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