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  #21  
Old October 29th, 2004, 12:52 AM
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Mike Johnstone
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The increase in price thing did happen with the Defenders in the US. The 110 is an example, and look at what's happening with Series prices, we're losing all the 25 yr old trucks in Canada to the states because Americans will pay 3 to 4 times what we will.

It does help that you can't import Defenders YET. Keep in mind that in 2010 the first built Defenders are illegible for import into the states and most of them that age from the UK will already have newer motors and repaired chassis's. The NAS 110 & 90 is a very unique truck but who's buying them? Will they still have that cult status when you can get one from the UK or Canada with a TDI for $10,000?

You're truck may go up in value, but lately nothings been moving in Canada. Check out lrx.com, there are trucks on there that have been for sale for a year. With 2010 approaching you may find that people stop paying the big bucks.
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  #22  
Old October 29th, 2004, 01:13 AM
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Jason Habbal
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Ron & Mike,
I def. see what your saying, Personally i still feel that the value of a D90 or 110 will go up though..I just have one of those feelings as to where someone with 100K miles is going to be saying, "hey why didn't I leave mine sitting," maybe with no regrets, even though most owners don't buy them to sit around. I guess im in that little handful of people that do. I just have a hunch that sooner or later (probably later) that its going to gain value and then when they do I will be sitting right, although right now i don't think i would sell MY d90 for 100K dollars if thats what someone offered....Saying that is like "hey thats my D90, it is #1104 and no one will have #1104 of 97 but me....I want to keep that thing forever regardless of if I see a nicer one I like or whatever, #1104 is mine......Most people think its stupid for me to do this but as i posted in the first post-My D90 sits in our climate controlled garage, as clean as a whistle, and gets driven very little....From the first day i got it, all i wanted to do was drive it around but then i got an older Tacoma and all i wanted to do from then on was let it sit and preserve it....I do like driving it around campus and all but still.....Hell, when im home from school the first thing i do is go sit and look at my D90 before I go play with my dog or even go inside...I can sit out in the garage all day in a chair and look at my 90......

D.J.-I know you know your stuff but I really beg to differ...I think with a little time it will gain value and i have said that from day one and always will....And honestly, i don't consider the NAS D90 to be "mass produced"...I mean this is not a Ford Mustang as to where you see it on every corner....."mass producing" is like a mustang or explorer or F-150 and the likes. And maybe you say that my Defender is not an investment but hopefully one day when you have 200K miles on yours and i still have 30K miles you might say "I should have left mine sitting" so that i could have sold mine for as much as he sold his for....(no disrespect intended) "IMO"



Take a 69 Camaro SS 396....This was a car back in the day that most people said yeah its bad ass but everybodys got one or can get one.....Now you go to a car show and find an immaculate 69 SS and they want 30K or more for them just because of what they are. I have seen some that went for 100K in an auction.....Im sure back in 69 there were people just like some of you who said "that car won't ever be worth anything" but hey here we have seen the value of these cars go up and up and up...................
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  #23  
Old October 29th, 2004, 01:35 AM
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"I def. see what your saying, Personally i still feel that the value of a D90 or 110 will go up though..I just have one of those feelings as to where someone with 100K miles is going to be saying, "hey why didn't I leave mine sitting," maybe with no regrets, even though most owners don't buy them to sit around."

Ohhh nooo, its not going to work like that. In 5 more years the 85's are coming. They will be hitting our shores like the G.I's at Normandy. Reconditioned by companies here and England for $15000 a pop total. All our trucks will be worth squat. And once people get a taste for the Turbo D-s you want be able to give your 3.9s away even if you throw in a hand job.
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  #24  
Old October 29th, 2004, 01:41 AM
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Mike Johnstone
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A buddy of mine has a Harley he restored from scratch sitting in his living room. He rides it on special occasions and really sunny days. He has a 67 Mustang for the rest of the time.

I would never do what he's done, but I understand it. Enjoy your toy.


P.S. I stand and look at my truck as well, I love the way Series and Defenders look.
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  #25  
Old October 29th, 2004, 03:00 AM
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Doug Bradford
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my defender is not woth anything but i put about 15k on is every year its been good to me.

Follow-up Post:

well all you have to do to fix your problem is: put some super swampers on it cut the muffler off and take it to the local famous mud hole get it stuck and then once you get it out park it outside in the weather and don't wash it. And everytime you take it back out muddin again just let the mud build up on it. My D90 loves it, just get it muddy, make it loud, and slap some ole fashion swampers and your 90 will love you more than ever.
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  #26  
Old October 29th, 2004, 01:44 PM
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Dave Souza
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I personally can't wait until the Defender passes the 25 yr mark. I've wanted a 110 for years but just don't have the resources for a '93 NAS. I totally agree that as many as we want will show up here, refurbished and stock/rough, for all that want them. Just like you can really get any Series truck you want now. But even the nice Series trucks can still be pretty spendy, some easily in the Defender price range (nice IIa's). I do still think the original NAS 90s might hold a slight premium for a while though, with some buyers anyway, until the age really doesn't matter anymore (ours get to be 15+ years old).

Since there will always be importing/shipping costs, I think they'll always be more than just your typical 4x4, but certainly the price will fall.

Jason, you're comparing a D90 to a 69 SS camaro, and I just don't see the similarities. If we could never import Defenders again, the exclusivity might remain, and that might hold true. But you've got to realize, the 69 was ONE year, and the SS model was a limited production of that year. We're talking the hundreds of thousands of Defenders produced from like 1985 through today, worldwide, and still going. They are basically the same, albeit with different powertrain options over the years (2.5 diesel, 200 Tdi, 300Tdi, V8). And in a few short years, the first 1985 years will become importable, and then every year from then on. The supply will basically become unlimited, at least for our currently dry market.

Of course, in most car collection circles, an original is always worth more than a modified one. I think that's true in the Series truck world, which is really the closest to compare it to, I think. But these vehicles were modified by so many authorities over the years, it's almost expected to have the 'better' components from different years. So it becomes an issue of how much more an original is worth over the 'modified' one.

An example: I want a 110, right? I want a nice one to use as a daily driver. If I can buy a 1985 110 in 5 years, with pretty much any engine/tranny they had in '85 (n/a diesel for instance), then throw in what I want (rebuilt 4.6, or Tdi diesel, or whatever), then refurbish and restore it, new chassis, new interior, exterior, etc., it'd probably cost about 15K. 20K if I really make it like new. Heck, say 25K if you want to, and it'll probaly show up off the boat in any format you want. Do you still think folks will be paying 50K for a 17 year old NAS 110, even it has has only 25K miles? It'd still be in rougher shape than my rebuilt one. Or even the 'titled' 2002 and 2003 110's you occasionally see on eBay now for $50K+? Those have 'legality' issues, and certainly wouldn't be a better option.

So the same goes for the 90, even more so really, since there were a heck of a lot more D90's imported from 94-97 then the 500 d110's brought in.

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, and I don't think anyone else is here either, its just that most of us see the writing on the wall with these. Will a Defender hold it's value over the long term, sure. It'll always be 'rare' in the relative sense, much like the Series trucks are today. But I am 100% sure that the days of 'making money' on a Defender simply by sitting on it are gone, or at least going. Think about it man, there's probably a lot surer of investments out there to sink $30K in if you just want to make money.

Since you enjoy looking at it, like we all do I think, there's obviously more to you keeping it than just investment, and that's good. Appreciate it for what it is, and enjoy it.

I think this beaten horse is now DEAD!
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  #27  
Old October 29th, 2004, 02:53 PM
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Jason Habbal
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Yeah im tired of hearing the same things....Regardles of who thinks they are right and whose opinion we will accept.....I tell everybody what...You all keep driving yours and ill leave mine in my garage all the time and in 10 years we will see what happens...

I agree with your points. I def. didn't buy my D90 to make money and i def. know that no one is trying to bust anyones bubble on the forum.....Either way i like to preserve it and let it stay exactly like it is...This thing is about as immaculate as i have seen one (yes my head is getting bigger by the second) and for me thats the way i want to keep it....Hey who knows, if i ever decide to sell it (thats a big if) i may not get jack shit for it or something in the future may happen as to where it will be worth a lot more than i paid and so forth...No one can predict the future all we can do is wait and see and my D90 is waiting in my garage instead of on the road....lol
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  #28  
Old October 29th, 2004, 02:59 PM
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David Marchand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
"I def. see what your saying, Personally i still feel that the value of a D90 or 110 will go up though..I just have one of those feelings as to where someone with 100K miles is going to be saying, "hey why didn't I leave mine sitting," maybe with no regrets, even though most owners don't buy them to sit around."

Ohhh nooo, its not going to work like that. In 5 more years the 85's are coming. They will be hitting our shores like the G.I's at Normandy. Reconditioned by companies here and England for $15000 a pop total. All our trucks will be worth squat. And once people get a taste for the Turbo D-s you want be able to give your 3.9s away even if you throw in a hand job.

That's some funny shit Dave. I can't wait for that day to happen. That's like a wet dream.

I'll echo some of what DJ mentioned (not bashing, just painting the picture). If your notion of "investment" is a truck that depreciates slower than most vehicles. I recommend attending a finance 101 class at your local community college.

Never mind the cost of the truck, which you just "might" recoup on a resale if you have a show room beauty. Think of all the unaccounted costs. Sales taxes, excise taxes, registrations, inspections, insurance, fuel, maintenance, mods, etc. Unless your driving number 300 of 300 of the '97 Limited's, you've just spent a lot of money that you will never see again. That is no investment. Make no mistake.

Say you bought your '95 new at that time for $32K. Sales tax at $2240, annual inspection till 2004 at around $270, insurance at complete ball park of $1200 a year (Approx what I pay in MA = $10,800), say two oil changes a year and major services at 30K (conservative total of $1200) on your low mile beauty. Throw in annual Excise tax which I still can't figure out. Your looking at a VERY, very lenient ballpark cost of ownership of $46,240 just in simple/conservative terms for nine years. Never mind major servicing, etc. Tack on annual fuel at around $1000, now your up to $55,240!

Whoa.

It's a common mistake to think an antique or unique car is an investment. Sure, you might recoup purchase price. But only a handful of cars can be considered investments. None of which were mass-produced. But your sunk costs far outweigh it. Think if you put that money in a MF with an average return of 8% or greater. You would have made that $23K+ in dollars back on your original "investment".

Of course, like I should talk...
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  #29  
Old October 29th, 2004, 03:12 PM
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Jason Habbal
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I never referred to the vehicle as an Antique....But in fact that there is hardly a "supply" of D90's in the US....Some of you make it sound like there are as many D90's as there are mustangs on the road....I am actually a business major in college...I don't think my local community college offers Finance 101....

As for your calculations...I don't know who does your insurance on your D90 but mine is no where near that and Im only 20 years old..You might want to check around with some other places...There is also a big difference in price from a 95 to a 97 on the Buyers market here from what i have seen...If i would have got my 97 for 32 i would have shit myself....

You can take fuel and mods off your calculations for me because i don't have to worry about fuel since its sits in the garage and no mods except brush guard and lights....lol

Yeah I actually looked at buying #300 of #300 but the price was a little steep at 85K....I talked with the owner and he said someone had offered him 75K the week before and he didn't sell it...he told me 85K was the least he would take...Thats when i walked across the showroom and picked out #1104 and was just as happy......
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  #30  
Old October 29th, 2004, 03:30 PM
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Mike Hansen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCURoverD90
I didn't buy it to take it on the trails and beat the hell out of it, and in all honesty i really don't like taking it one the trails...I would rather have it all cleaned up and be driving it around charlotte than out on the trails
NOW YOU DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!

You must sell your 90 now. The Rover Gods will stalk you wherever you may go and curse you with mechanical breakdowns, unexplaned stalls, and the frequent loss of your car keys.

Buy a Bling Bling Cady.....and yes they do hate you.
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  #31  
Old October 29th, 2004, 03:51 PM
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Yeah people that dont use 4wd's are why they are all shit now Land Rover's are an excellent example of this. Dont try to look the part if you dont use it for what it is made for. I dont drive mine much but everytime I do I make an effort to use the diff-lock. Yeah if you want to look good maybe get the new LR3 or one of those cross-over SUV's. Having a D-90 and not wheelin it is like having a hot and not ____ her , if I couldnt ___ I would get another I could ___ , if you dont use the 90 maybe sell it for a lot recoup your "investment" and get some like Mike mentioned.


O yeah when your diff-lock seizes up dont post here and ask whats wrong
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  #32  
Old October 29th, 2004, 04:17 PM
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Jim Cheney
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I think we've all gotten away from the original question which was "do the D90 gods hate me?"

I believe the answer is yes

This is the closest I've seen to a flame war on this board and now we're talking about jerking and phukking and probably going downhill fast.

Good god, I think its time for CVC or Hippert to lock this thread.
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  #33  
Old October 29th, 2004, 04:38 PM
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Hey folks. Give Jason a break. Some day (thirty to forty years AFTER Defenders are no longer produced) a mint condition Defender may well fetch some serious cash. Then again, a perfectly restored one will, too. I seriously doubt a perfect, unrestored Defender (or any vehicle for that matter) would make a very good investment due to all the costs involed (initial purchase + maintenance + storage + licensing + insurance) for all those years.

Jason, if you're serious about doing the garage trophy thing, you would do better to actually STORE your Defender (put it in long-term storage) instead of just rarely using it. Machines are built to be used and you're not doing your Defender / investment any favors by parking it for two months between drives-around-the-block. Store it properly so that it'll function correctly at a later date.
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  #34  
Old October 29th, 2004, 04:54 PM
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I'm with Jim on this one, I am sure anyone here could be accused of using their Rover for things other then whatever it's original intention was, so weather you want to bounce off rocks, drive to work or admire it in your garage then you are still a D-90 enthusiast. This is the D-90 source not " JUST " Hardcore off Road D-90 or daily driver D-90 or even garaging your D-90.
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  #35  
Old October 29th, 2004, 08:25 PM
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Jason Habbal
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LOL...This horse has been beaten way to much over the past few days.....Either way you all do what you wish with yours and ill do what i wish with mine...Yes I started the post but now im tired of hearing the same things over and over.....And your right, this is a enthusiast board for D90's so lets just end this post.....
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  #36  
Old March 3rd, 2005, 12:10 PM
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John Cranfield
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Quote:
Originally Posted by souza
We can argue the value point, and only time will tell that, but taking a truck on the trails isn't beating the shit out of it. You mentioned that 3 times in that post, but that's really not what trail riding is about. These are rugged, built-to-last vehicles designed for off highway travel. To actually do that with them is not beating the hell or shit out of them. Sure some might beat up their trucks off road, particularly in competitions and really hard core trails. But I think the majority of Defender owners who take their trucks off road, as well as other Land Rover owners who trail ride, do not beat on them at all, they enjoy them as they were designed to be driven. Real off roading isn't what happens on the TV commercials. Personally, I think you're missing out on the best aspect of owning a Defender, but I respect your right to drive it (or not drive it ) as you see fit.

Absolutely and completely right. I have just imported to Canada a 1989 90 that spent it's life as a farm truck it has 120,000 miles and is in excellent condition. It was used frequently doing a fair bit of trailer towing around a dairy farm. The maintenance was very good and a damage from an accident repaired so as to be unnoticable. In other words it lead a 15 year active life and still looks good and works well.

John
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