Diesels - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old October 12th, 2003, 06:56 PM
R.B.Bailey
Status: Offline
R. Ben Bailey
1965 Series IIa 88"
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 6
Diesels

So one of the main things that is holding me back from getting a Defender is that I have enough trouble towing my camper trailer with the 3.9L in my Discovery. We really would like to get a D110, but generally speaking they either have the 3.9L or a 2.25L Tdi which is really not much better for hwy towing at 4000 ft plus altitude - at least that is what everyone has said so far.

I plan on buying a couple of 110's grey market and using the parts to build my own, (all the complications and "ifs" and "buts" aside in taking on a task like that...) so I would probably opt for a Td5, or would look to put a totally different engine in the truck all together.

Have any of you put a Cummins Tdi, or a Ford PS into a Defender? If so, the engine seems to be the least of worries, what about mating it to a Rover or ZF gear box?

Thanks,
My Rover Web Site
__________________
RBB
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old October 12th, 2003, 08:57 PM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,525
Registry
Hmm if you are towing something that big then the Defender might not be that good for your application, how much the camper wiegh? Perhaps you could look into a 4.6 petrol motor. I dont think any of the Rover diesals would prove to be much more effiencent at pulling the camper. the other diesals you mentioned for the application have been discussed I dont know that there is anyone with either of those motors in a Defender just would be a huge can of worms to install either.
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 13th, 2003, 08:21 AM
Mike Hippert's Avatar
Mike Hippert
Status: Offline
D-90Slut/Stalker,SNLPres
94 D-90 Grinding Rover
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester NH USA
Posts: 4,789
Unless you want allot of work then I would stick with a Rover engine or the new PS 2.8. The 2.8 may be your best option. I know that 110s are used for towing in the UK so I don't think it is a problem just a matter of what you want to be able to do. If you would be happy not being able to pass on the uphills then the 300tdi may be OK. How much does the trailor weigh? I would stay away from the TD5 to many electronics And I don't know how it would do with American Diesel.
__________________
Don't forget to
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
first then ask questions later! The loose nut behind the wheel
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old October 13th, 2003, 11:05 AM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
"I would stay away from the TDI to many electronics"
What? Did you mean to type this?
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 13th, 2003, 11:48 AM
Mike Hippert's Avatar
Mike Hippert
Status: Offline
D-90Slut/Stalker,SNLPres
94 D-90 Grinding Rover
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester NH USA
Posts: 4,789
MY bad I meant the TD5 the curent Defender issue engine. Fixed it
__________________
Don't forget to
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
first then ask questions later! The loose nut behind the wheel
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 13th, 2003, 11:58 AM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Oh, then yeah, thats right.
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 13th, 2003, 08:13 PM
R.B.Bailey
Status: Offline
R. Ben Bailey
1965 Series IIa 88"
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 6
I will probably look into the PS Diesel that East Coast Rovers has. I would also look at the 4.6, but the gas mileage with a 4.6 would be questionable.

No, I don't want to pass on the hills; just to not be honked at by all the little old ladies in their hybrids, while I in my V8 pulling a 2300 lbs trailer can't break 45 mph on a normal mountain pass...

Thanks for the advice. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who has upgraded their Defender either 90 or 110. Especially if you have towed with it.
__________________
RBB
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old October 14th, 2003, 04:17 AM
RichardMoore's Avatar
RichardMoore
Status: Offline
Richard Moore
2002 TD5 D-90 Hardtop
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Warwickshire UK
Posts: 30
With US gas prices I would stick with V8 - 4.6
TD5 gets a lot of stick because of electronics but the reality is that in service it has proved to be far more reliable than the TDi which has a reputation for being over-stressed . I would be wary of the 2.8 PS diesel until some feedback from real world users surfaces - it is after all a stretched TDi.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old October 14th, 2003, 12:08 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Here is the easy way out. The diesels are way better at towing than gas engines and even the most problematic diesel takes less maintenance than a typical gas engine. Buy a TDi, add a little propane injection and NOS, adjust the boost and fuel and add a new intercooler. Finally, put a big race stripe on your D and paint the trailer to match and you are good to go.
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old October 14th, 2003, 07:47 PM
R.B.Bailey
Status: Offline
R. Ben Bailey
1965 Series IIa 88"
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 6
David, what you are saying is what I thought was common knowledge. I thought that diesels were better at towing, but everyone except you has said that they are not - at least Rover diesels are not. If you compare the HP and torque, even the 300 Tdi is lower on the scale than the V8 is.

As far as gas prices are, compared to the rest of the world, our gas is low, but if you compare our gas with diesel prices - in the NW at least for the past few years the diesel has been right between the regular and plus gas prices, or sometimes even
lower than the regular gas price.

i.e.: R = 1.45 P = 1.57 S = 1.67 D = 1.50

With the mileage I would get in a D110 with a 300Tdi, the savings would be very very good.

I need to hook my trailer up to someone's 300Tdi and try it.
__________________
RBB
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old October 14th, 2003, 08:05 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
I wish I was over there so you could hook it up to mine and try it out. I am going to have a whole bunch of people jump on me for saying this but many rover owners are very protective of thier engines and don't seem to realize that the US V8 is a crappy engine. It produces very marginal HP and has major overheating issues caused by a host of different factors. Now, before people flip, they can be well maintained and nursed to a good milage but not so much. Overheating and aluminum blocks don't mix. Diesels are better at towing, everybody knows it, look at big rigs, but, are rover diesels better at towing? Yes and no. They get much better gas milage and can maintain higher speeds better than the V8. This means if you hammer it at the bottom of a hill you will keep better speed up that hill than a V8. They are slower off the line. They are also a little underpowered for my taste. As far as less HP without going way deep into it, Diesel HP has nothing to do with gas HP. They are two different animals. Side by side if you want to compare the two I fully believe the Diesel is going to suite your needs better than a gas if you are going to replace your engine no matter what. Getting back $6000 worth of a conversion in gas savings takes a lot of driving. Keep in mind that most people who have bad things to say about the 2.8 or Tdi have never owned one. I said most! If you own one it is hard not to like it. I was not kidding about all the upgrades available for this engine, it is not that hard to pump a reliable 200 bhp out of it which in a Diesel is a shietload. Good luck, I hope this helps, let the argument begin.
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old October 14th, 2003, 09:27 PM
R.B.Bailey
Status: Offline
R. Ben Bailey
1965 Series IIa 88"
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 6
I think you are right about the HP comparison in gas v. diesel. But just how right you are, I don't know how to prove it scientifically - other than to hook 'er up and let 'er rip. I will have to ask my mechanic if he could let me tow with his.

This should be mentioned - I don't plan on doing a conversion. At least not in the way that going from and NAS Defender or Disco would be a conversion. I plan on starting with a clean slate and building a D110 from large parts that I would buy from Canada etc. Frame, body parts, engine, transmission, would all come from different cars.

You might do me and a lot of other people a lot of good to strap a trailer on one day and compare it to a Discovery. I'm sure the new 4.6 can tow fine; but we are talking about early DII's and DI's, and D90's and D110's with V8's. The trailer I tow is a camper trailer, a small hard sided one (2300 lbs.) so it is not an uncommon load at all. It's just that my inlaws have a 2800 lbs trailer that they tow just as good or better with a Isuzu V6. When the 3.9L Rover gets above 5000 feet, I CANNOT go faster than 55, even on a slight incline. And there isn't anything wrong with my engine!
__________________
RBB
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old October 14th, 2003, 11:22 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Ok,

That makes a lot of sence. A d-90 or 110 is shaped like a brick. It is a totally different thing. You are going to have a hard time keeping up with a lower profile vehicle pulling a trailer and pushing all that wind. Now that I know it is a ground up buildup, there is not a single reason not to go Diesel. Good luck!
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old October 17th, 2003, 02:29 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
Hi there.
I'm a 110 owning Tdi engined towing person that you wanted to talk to.
I've towed with a twin axle trailer with my 90 on the back all up weight of around 2.5 tonnes. Well able to cruise at 60mph (legal max in the UK when towing) and turn in around 30 m.p.g (imperial) while doing it and that is on a non tweaked motor. No big intercooler or modified fuel delivery.
You're right about the power being different, it comes in lower and is more useful for towing. Go for it fit a diesel. TD5's have a bad name but it's superstition mostly. Tdi's are good motors and if looked after will do 250,000 miles no problem. My 110 has clocked 150,000 miles and still pulling strongly. The oil takes about 1000 miles to discolour after an oil change!
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old October 17th, 2003, 06:25 PM
R.B.Bailey
Status: Offline
R. Ben Bailey
1965 Series IIa 88"
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 6
Mike,

Thanks for the response. Let me get this straight, you have the 300Tdi? And you are using a D110 to tow a flat bed trailer with a D90 on the trailer?

What about hills? I routinely go from sea level to 5000-6000 feet while towing this trailer. I think that's higher than anything in Britain!

This is my only reservation for really setting out to get a diesel; can it tow our trailer? If it can do it as good, or better than our '94 Discovery; even my wife would be happy to get a D110 with a Diesel!

My Rover Web Site
__________________
RBB
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old October 17th, 2003, 07:20 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
When you get up really high the power does go a little down. It is not really noticable but as the air thins, you can see some black smoke coming out. I don't think this is going to be an accurate comparison for you but I went up the steep part of Flagstaff with a fully loaded rig and 37in tires with stock gearing pulling 75 the whole way. Blowing a little smoke like a champ!
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old October 18th, 2003, 04:38 AM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
O.K.
I've actually got a 200 Tdi in the 110 but the power output is the same, the 300 Tdi revs a bit higher. You're right about the height it's pretty low in GB.
Summer before last I was in Morocco. The 110 was well loaded up, camping gear for a month, clothes etc, extra fuel, loads of water, two spare wheels and tyres(Wolf Rims V.Strong V. heavy) everything you need for two and an expedition to the Sahara. The truck had a roof rack and an all up weight of around 3 tonnes. Sone of the passes over the Atlas mountains were 9,500 ft, there was a bit of black smoke (probably due to moroccan diesel) but it just kept on pulling no issues with overheating even when the temperature was in excess of 50 centigrade.The turbo helps enormously though because it's compressing the air and ramming it in those cylinders. so the effects of altitude are lessened.
If you find that there isn't quite enough power then you can fit a much larger and more efficient intercooler and turn the fueling up a bit, that can make quite a difference to the power output. There are quite a few companies in GB who offer this service as a kit with full instructions for tweaking the fueling. The modifications to the fuel pump are largely external. Believe me you do not want to be taking a fuel injection pump apart on the garage floor. it's a job for experts.
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old October 19th, 2003, 12:02 PM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,525
Registry
who cares about power blah blah. 25mpg and you can drive under water it doesnt get any better than that.
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old October 22nd, 2003, 03:46 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
You see what happens to the fuel injection pump if you get water in the fuel!
Bad news, very bad news. It happened to my 90.
The pump internals rust really quickly, the hard facing then starts to break up and the pump fills with swarf. Then the fuel solenoid stops working because it gets jammed with the swarf. Pretty soon you get fuel running out the front timing cover drain hole hen you get a really big repair bill which negates all the money you saved by running a diesel to start with
I'm much more circumspect about deep water now, water can get into the fuel tank via the filler cap vent hole.
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 03:40 PM
RichardMoore's Avatar
RichardMoore
Status: Offline
Richard Moore
2002 TD5 D-90 Hardtop
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Warwickshire UK
Posts: 30
Question

You waded your 90 over the filler cap? Thats pretty deep, btw Td5 90 has axle breathers and sealed cap as std. Favourite wading spot in Warwickshire is the main road by Kenilworth Castle which is prone to flooding but passable with care. Local Defender owners park up on a Sunday afternooon and rescue hapless motorists[usually for a 10] who have just been urged through the ford by the kids lining the foot bridge
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat

Tags
diesel

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
mpgs for diesels? Z O O R O P A Misc. Chit-Chat 145 April 26th, 2013 04:02 PM
4 x defender 110 (1983) diesels rovernutzz For Sale - Vehicles 10 June 20th, 2008 02:01 PM
synthetic 15w-40 in diesels...watcha think? D90user Defender Technical Discussions 10 April 1st, 2008 05:26 PM
Rumors Ford will use Land Rover sourced diesels on 2009 F150 DBZ2009 Misc. Chit-Chat 4 May 3rd, 2007 07:15 PM
Different kinds of diesels rustydefender Misc. Chit-Chat 22 February 10th, 2005 08:06 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:57 PM.


Copyright