Destroyed D110's in Georgia Conflict WARNING: GRAPHIC PICTURES OF DEAD BODIES - Page 2 - Defender Source
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  #21  
Old August 21st, 2008, 01:52 PM
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I don't want to wait for all that to load again, but IIRC, that two-door 110 took somewhat more that small-arms fire. We are spending millions on the MRAPs because up-armored anythings aren't much protection against threats greater than angry farmers with improvised weapons. I still think they'd be hosed.
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  #22  
Old August 21st, 2008, 02:31 PM
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Agreed. The fire inside was not small arms. whatever it was that folded in the front left quarter of the lead 110, was bigger than "up armor" can handle. maybe an RPG, or recoiless type rifle. the second one with the shattered back windows was all small arms it looks like, the and armor might have helped an escape. The dead guy burned to a crisp on the ground beside the lead one, looked to me like he got out of the burning vehicle and dropped dead. that bulkhead was burned to a toast.

I thought the tank turret that came through the building roof was the most interesting picture. I also noted the lack of detonated reactive armor all over, which suggests roof shot munitions (air or indirect launched) or kinetic tank on tank round hits. The lack of ballistic seperation in soviet tanks between ammo and crew yields some spectacular fireworks.
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  #23  
Old August 21st, 2008, 03:19 PM
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Since a number of you are fairly informed, here are a few questions.

Can anyone tell how effective the Georgian forces were/are as this conflict has progressed (granted these aren't even odds)? Will they retain any strength after the Russian excursion is finished.

Is the picture of the anti-tank weapon (with English instructions) meaning to suggest the US is arming the Georgians?

Do you think this increases or decreases the chances of establishing another pipeline outside of Russian territory?
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  #24  
Old August 21st, 2008, 04:08 PM
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I'll take the easy one first. Q#2. That is the US LAW (light antitank weapon). we've had that since Vietnam. We are likely selling them arms of some sort, as well as the rest of the West (UK sold them defenders, right?)
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  #25  
Old August 21st, 2008, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander
I'll take the easy one first. Q#2. That is the US LAW (light antitank weapon). we've had that since Vietnam. We are likely selling them arms of some sort, as well as the rest of the West (UK sold them defenders, right?)
I thought that looked somewhat familiar and not very advanced.

It is not surprising they are on some sort of low-level weapons program, I was curious to see if this was something of a precursor to accusations of US involvement in the current conflict beyond bottled water.
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  #26  
Old August 21st, 2008, 04:49 PM
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We have have been training the Georgians for years. They have had a brigade in Iraq now for several years (of course that brigade just pulled out to go home). The Georgians are eager learners and very motivated. I'm curious if we'll cut back our assistance to avoid provocation, or leave it as it.

As for establishing another pipeline? The BTC already runs through Georgia and I'm not aware of plans for a second pipe through that area. The BTC was our idea by the way.
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  #27  
Old August 21st, 2008, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragland
I thought that looked somewhat familiar and not very advanced.

It is not surprising they are on some sort of low-level weapons program, I was curious to see if this was something of a precursor to accusations of US involvement in the current conflict beyond bottled water.
we did this. the ruskies moved in before we could trian them and arm them. clearly the russian gun was cocked, it was gonna fire no matter what. they just jumped on an excuse. why wait on your own "tonkin" when some georgian idiots are gonna hand you the reason.

we should have stayed out of the old "block" untill we cleaned the current mess up. to many alliances mean too many potential fronts. our enemies dont have to have an overt, or covert, conspiracy to hurt us. all they need to know is whats in their best interest. in this case, were so over extended, that russia can score diplomatic "fear" points, not because thier army is any good, but because were out of ability.

what concerns me now, are other countries we have issues with taking thier pot shots, knowing we are unable to respond.

Bushes legacy is going to be a downward spiral. we'd be better off pulling back while we have the economic ability to regroup, as we did after vietnam.
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  #28  
Old August 21st, 2008, 05:05 PM
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http://www.slate.com/id/2198216/

We're all over the map policy and diplomacy wise. I'm not going to go too far into my personal views for all the reasons that you wouldn't in a Defender forum.
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  #29  
Old August 21st, 2008, 05:17 PM
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I've stayed out of this up until now but wanted to toss in a couple of thoughts:
-Just b/c it's a LAW doesn't mean we're arming them with them; i.e. the LAW isn't manufactured in the US and it's on the open market (in Europe, and elsewhere). While I imagine LAW production has caught up with demand since we started getting them in 06-not to mention Iraq has calmed down a bit since then-I don't know that we necessarily have enough to be giving them away. I'm not saying we're not-just pointing out there are several ROW M72 varients out there.
-In terms of Up-Armor HMMWV vs 110 and tossing in other things like MRAPs and stuff, it's worth pointing out that in my experience UAH (up-armor HMMWVs) do rather well even against IEDs. I don't have as much experience with up-armored 110's outside of a fun ride in a version in Belfast but they are different beasts entirely. The UAH vs MRAP debate is a different story; I'll be blunt: I don't like MRAPs. They're huge, heavy, and it's treating symptoms vice attacking the problem but that's a different discussion.

Regardless, I concur that whatever hit the 110 would have done a number on a UAH or an MRAP.
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  #30  
Old August 21st, 2008, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray_G
Regardless, I concur that whatever hit the 110 would have done a number on a UAH or an MRAP.
Ray
Thats the main point. Not trying to start a debate about armor effectiveness, and I'll always defer to people that have spent more time in UAH's than I have.

I would like to disabuse the notion that the US "arming" the Georgians is some Iran-Contra-esque affair. Its totally above-board Foreign Military Assistance.

To oversimplify, police states that don't mind having anachronistic militaries go to the Russians for training. Countries that want real training come to us.
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  #31  
Old August 21st, 2008, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander
...That is the US LAW (light antitank weapon). we've had that since Vietnam...
Wow. With all the advances in the last 30+ years, the LAW really hasn't changed since we fired them in the 70's?? (when the M60-A1 tank was still considered cutting edge technology!!...) LOL
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  #32  
Old August 21st, 2008, 06:13 PM
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My statement regarding the photo and the initial suggestion of "arming" was motivated more by the question of if this will become a new accusation against us - as if we are fighting a proxy battle against the Russians, justifying some further course of action on their part or hurled by 3rd party critics.

As for the pipeline, it was my understanding there is desire for a second pipeline avoiding Russian territory. I have read commentary suggesting this action will dampen desire for such investment. OTOH, I would think leaders would much prefer an energy source not subject to Russia's hand on the spigot.
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  #33  
Old August 21st, 2008, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GYM
Wow. With all the advances in the last 30+ years, the LAW really hasn't changed since we fired them in the 70's?? (when the M60-A1 tank was still considered cutting edge technology!!...) LOL
In some ways we've gone back to stuff that works. We had AT-4's among other (heavier) things but I know the USMC started re-issuing new LAWs in ~2006 b/c we got them, and then my snipers promptly found a reason to use them (several of them). Pics from that would look a lot like the link to the Georgian stuff, suffice it to say they do a number on a car filled with IED emplacers.

In another flashback, we actually had quite a few M-79's floating around too; that 40mm grenade launcher was outstanding in terms of accuracy. I've actually got a side by side from the range of the M79 and the M32-both good for their own purposes (as is the M203, and my personal favorite of the 'family' the Mk-19)
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  #34  
Old August 22nd, 2008, 10:06 AM
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Selling stockpiles of our old arms is quite common-nothing covert about it. When we are arming non-governmental militant groups to undermine a sovereign government, or violating our own policy (like trading arms for hostages), then that's a different animal.

Most of our friends and allies have stuff we have sold them. Some have Russian stuff too (like Egypt). Don't confuse global arms sales markets with foreign policy (although they have interaction points).
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  #35  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 12:39 PM
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I pulled these off another board, but these don't look like stockpiles of our older arms?
They may have come from Israel, but who knows.

I'm not going to say whether or not we should be aiding Georgia with training or otherwise. But this could get worse with Putins actions.


Fact is, these pictures illustrate the horrors of war and its impact upon the civilian population and military combatant's. It's been 145 years since War has been seen on America soil, and I hope it continues to pass too.
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  #36  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 01:19 PM
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Sorry but, damn, those are some nice M-4's. Wish I could of grabbed a bunch of those colts.
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  #37  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 02:56 PM
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They are acutally Bushmaster 'M4s' - go to their website and buy what you want.
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  #38  
Old August 23rd, 2008, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Oxcart13
They are acutally Bushmaster 'M4s' - go to their website and buy what you want.
Oh yeah, I didn't look at the pic close enough to notice the coiled snake. My bad. Those are sbr's. (14 inch w/ the 203 profile. You can't have them unless you get the tax stamp. Not only that those are new select fire lowers and those are obviously no no.

Kewl beans
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