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  #361  
Old May 16th, 2006, 01:19 PM
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Let me elaborate. I'm not suggesting LRNA is desperate for a halo vehicle. Sales are tops historically, and the division is profitable for Ford. But there is room in the line for something which looks like it belongs on a trail. Land Rover can't afford to be knocked off the perch regarding off road capability. This is the wink-wink bargain with all the new products. In essence, "Sure it does everything like a car but we all know LR is the best off-road." Customers tolerated a lot with LR products - reputation and branding kept them from disappearing during the bad quality years.

As time moves on, LR is becoming separated from the reputation and branding. A new product will need to reclaim the heritage. Less than 9,000 Defenders ever made it here in the 90's, yet these cars still loom large over the brand. A couple hundred thousand cars later, and customers continue to buy Land Rovers in part because of what the Defender contributed to the branding. What other make has such a model? Possibly the Nissan Skyline for the rice-burner set, but that's another conversation.

While I agree that most would hate actually owning the Defender, they buy into LR, with its higher pricing and lower quality because of the mystique. No Freelander will ever generate that kind of buzz, and the Defender is still on the LRNA website. Land Rover is on a roll right now, and they're going to push the brand further. Unlike Jag, this division is actually profitable. Another vehicle line may yet be introduced. Throw in another 9,000 Defenders, and they could move 100,000 units of a rebadged car-based crossover without diluting the branding.

The Defender is like grain alcohol in the boat drinks. You can whip up some awfully big batches with just a bit.
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  #362  
Old May 16th, 2006, 02:08 PM
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Thats the thing about the Defender, they can't just ramp up production as quickly as they can with other vehicles. The design of the vehicle doesn't cooperate too well with more modern production methods and it is slower and more labor intensive to produce because they really can't automate the production I remember a couple articles that stated they are making as many Defenders as they can, and can't keep up with worldwide demand as it is. So why put all the development money into making it sellable in the USA again, if they already sell them as fast as they can make them.

The US is just going to have to wait for the next major redesign of the truck when they 'promised' it would be done to meet both EU and US standards as well as be able of more automated production.
Personally, I am still hoping they are going to do a nicely designed cross-brand of the new Bronco and new Defender when the time comes. They are both strong heritage designs for Ford and LR, with rabid fan bases, similar markets, and look pretty much the same already.

-Hans
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  #363  
Old May 16th, 2006, 03:24 PM
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Its funny that this message just popped up on MSNBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12819384/

maybe there is a chance.... (although i doubt it, and wont be getting rid of my 90 anytime soon)
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  #364  
Old May 16th, 2006, 03:43 PM
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I saw LR3 test mules on 15 north of Vegas last week in full disguise. I wonder if they were the diesels?

Granted, I also saw a daihatsu charade being towed by a trash truck on the same stretch of highway, so I suppose anything is possible. The trash truck was far cleaner than the daihatsu.
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  #365  
Old May 16th, 2006, 03:47 PM
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I am not getting rid of my D-90 regardless.......BUT what will the prices of these Defenders be if they do come to the US. I once heard that there would be a rugged one "the farm-truck", and one that had total luxury options......there would be far less rugged ones sent to the US.

But here is my question - If these do come to our shores.......what is the price of a current Defender.......Will ours drop significantly in price.........??????

Or will they ship over too few, at too high a price to really effect our resale too much??

Flagg
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  #366  
Old May 16th, 2006, 04:54 PM
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In my opinion prices would change very little in the middle and lower end.
A good solid D90 for say 28K would still be a nice buy when compared to a lets say 2007 Defender 90 at 40,000. The lower end 90s would still be the same value as well. Prices could even go up a bit as new cars generate interest in older cars.
The market that would suffer is the high end. Why would you then spend 55,000. on a low miles 1997 D90 when for less you could buy a brand new one.
The market will remain strong as the numbers will always be low.

These prices are just for fun out of my head. I have no data on what a new Defender might cost, but I know what my new 1997 D90SW cost me and with inflation I don't see LRNA selling a 2007 Defender for less than 40-45K.

But you don't have to worry... it ain't coming.
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  #367  
Old May 16th, 2006, 05:19 PM
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IMO I think any Defender brought in will be good for Land Rover. LR knows where they came from and they know they need a off road icon even if it means putting out a Defender based on the LR3 platform. I do regrest that straight axles are going to be a thing of the past but a stripped down version of the LR3 wont be that bad. Have you seen the RRS or LR3 on a tough trail yet? Head to head in a pure stock form the RRS or LR3 will climb and better than a stock Defender, I have seen it with mine own two eyes. As much as I would like to think that my Defender is the cats ass it just cant compete off road with the new Land Rovers. Does that mean that I am going to run right out and buy one? Heck No. Not with all the electric stuff to go bad in the middle of nowhere, I didnt say they were more reliable off road or that they would not incure more body damage but they climb circles around Defenders until the computer breaks or the sills fall off

A Defender based on a stripped down version of the LR3 without the heated seats and navigation and all that BS would be a pretty good off roader and I am sure aftermarket suspension and bumpers and all that crap would be right around the corner.

I look forward to a all new Defender, I already have an old one and I don't need a carbon copy of that, it would be nice to drive in the rain without getting my feet wet for once

Oh, I have to disagree with ECR, I do think they are coming back.
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  #368  
Old May 16th, 2006, 05:58 PM
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If Defenders return, guys like Coppley will take a hit. People looking for a "like-new" vehicle will simply get the real thing - new.

As for the comment regarding the secrecy and mixed messages, I believe a lot of it can be attributed to the shaky automotive industry and the turnover in LR management. Since the time of the original NAS models, LR has had three owners and countless management turnovers. Parent company Ford is in the financial straits. Longtime LR suppliers, the ones who make the Defender possible, have suffered equally. Throw in confusion with the MoD and changing regs. It really is a different environment than in the early '90s. An all new Defender has been postponed with almost every arriving management team. But with the changing Euro regs, something had to be done this time.
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  #369  
Old May 16th, 2006, 08:46 PM
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The G Wagon was up to $81,000 for the final model in 2005. You think LRNA would sell a NAS 110 for anything less than $60? Of course it'll need to have a redesigned dash, navigation, auto transmission, airbags, and power everything. To protect the LRNA "brand integrity" they wouldn't have it any other way.

And I highly doubt they would ever bring the 90. Not in today's SUV climate, and not after the two-door Freelander basically flopped. Better chance (slim one at that) of having the 110 wagon and 110 four-door pickup, a la H2 SUT.
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  #370  
Old May 16th, 2006, 11:35 PM
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http://www.lrlmag.com/magazine.php?id=2&sID=34

Looks like an article coming out in the June 06 edition of The Landrover Lifestyle Magazine regarding timetable for Defenders return. I believe it makes sense, redesign of jeep, toyota landcruiser, hummer sales, landrover sales. Why not? Websites like this, current high resale value, parts, and after market show that there is a demand with fan base.
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  #371  
Old May 17th, 2006, 12:05 AM
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Aged UK Defenders are going to be importable in the near future. Mike S. >>> You guys can have a field day, like the heydays of RoversNorth in the 70s, importing and restoring Brit Defenders for the NA affeccianado (spelling) market, no?

Doug W.
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  #372  
Old May 17th, 2006, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobb
http://www.lrlmag.com/magazine.php?id=2&sID=34

Looks like an article coming out in the June 06 edition of The Landrover Lifestyle Magazine regarding timetable for Defenders return. I believe it makes sense, redesign of jeep, toyota landcruiser, hummer sales, landrover sales. Why not? Websites like this, current high resale value, parts, and after market show that there is a demand with fan base.

I think this truck is coming back. But as much as I am excited about it, I do feel this whole experience is a bit too much like Tattoo screaming "The Plane, the plane!"

And we should prepare for some let down factor. The new one will more than likely have an automatic and the brochure will no longer make reference to hosing out the interior.
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  #373  
Old May 17th, 2006, 12:36 PM
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I agree...........I Believe that Land Rover will think of the US market if they bring it back.

The Average US buyer does not care about the off-road capabilities, and just loves the tough image. They want a comfortable car that they can look cool when they drive to work. I think a lot of the D-90s from 1994-1997 that came over here ended up in places like LA and never left pavement.......Land Rover will think about this - even if they bring it over in small numbers.

That said, I am sure the new one will be very good off road.......maybe better than ours - as long as all the new electronics do not fail.

BUT, I believe the new one will be carpeted, comfortable, automatic, GPS option, better heat and air conditioned, heated seats, etc, etc. I think they will follow the direction of the new G-Wagons. The new G's are not anywhere near as stripped down as the old - but look at the US buyers who buy them - even at their high prices.

I also do not think that they will bring the soft top D-90s back.......unless they make soft tops available for the rest of the world.........

Flagg
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  #374  
Old May 17th, 2006, 03:45 PM
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I'm with ECR. It ain't coming back. All you guys who say it is are relying on Land Rover using common sense. Your common sense is right on; I just don't think theirs is.

The fact is that the U.S. offroad segment is way too small to change justify a change in production methods. All it takes is for one Ford exec. to question why they would spend money to make a NAS Defender when they can not spend it and sell mall crawlers anyway.

But then again, I know shit about this stuff. I just haven't seen any indication that the new Land Rover ownership values the heritage of the brand. They sure took the coolness factor out of Jags.
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  #375  
Old May 17th, 2006, 04:31 PM
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One thing though is that the UK Spec Defender is going to need some updating soon as EU laws change. And if LR has to do significant updating to the design, then it only makes sense for them to make the new configuration fit both EU and US laws.

I can't see them modifying the current trucks only to fit US laws, but I can see them incorporating both into the design if they have to do the updates anyways.

-Hans
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  #376  
Old May 17th, 2006, 08:00 PM
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Here's another angle to this situation--

Suppose Land Rover updates the D-90 enough to satisfy US safety and emissions standards, but LRNA just decides not to import it. Couldn't they be brought in legally in the grey market?

LR still manufactures LHD Defenders for some countries, so it seems to me that with certain mods it should be possible.
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  #377  
Old May 18th, 2006, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan0527
Here's another angle to this situation--

Suppose Land Rover updates the D-90 enough to satisfy US safety and emissions standards, but LRNA just decides not to import it. Couldn't they be brought in legally in the grey market?

LR still manufactures LHD Defenders for some countries, so it seems to me that with certain mods it should be possible.

Not unless LRNA bring it in first. The DOT certifications come through a costly processes of crashing cars, etc. Only LRNA has the $$ to do that. Any other importation (much like importing and Fedralizing a 1993 110 today through an RI) comes from the data set by LRNA doing it first.
If they don't, you can't. (unless you put up the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to get them certified).
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  #378  
Old May 18th, 2006, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Not unless LRNA bring it in first. The DOT certifications come through a costly processes of crashing cars, etc. Only LRNA has the $$ to do that. Any other importation (much like importing and Fedralizing a 1993 110 today through an RI) comes from the data set by LRNA doing it first.
If they don't, you can't. (unless you put up the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to get them certified).
Sort of like the guy who formed a company to import the G-Wagen during the late 90's. You must crash test the vehicle, necessitating the destruction of some cars (and not just one or two, either). He must have cringed when MB announced plans to bring it over.
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  #379  
Old May 18th, 2006, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragland
Sort of like the guy who formed a company to import the G-Wagen during the late 90's. You must crash test the vehicle, necessitating the destruction of some cars (and not just one or two, either). He must have cringed when MB announced plans to bring it over.
Exactly... Europa was to company in AZ.
I spoke with him at length way back when about how he did it, what it took, etc. as I wanted to Fedralize Defenders. In the end... WAY too much money and BS.
A guy from Hunting Ridge Motors in NY claimed he was going to certify Defender 110s years ago (crash them and all), but it never came to be.
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  #380  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 08:18 PM
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I have talked to a salesman/person at the local dealership. She told me that they won't know until next year what the return date is possible 2008 more likley 2011
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