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  #141  
Old May 20th, 2013, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
I think your overlooking the basic point. The only way you can drive your non-compliant engined truck here is with an exemption. Their exemption is applied to the complete configuration package (truck and engine) not just the engine. They have stated their exemption is voided if the original configuration is changed (different engine type). They have stopped vehicles at the ports recently because they have determined that the 200TDi for example is NOT a 2.5NA or 2.5TD but a completely different engine (it has a different engine type number). Without that exemption the new engine must be compliant or you couldn't drive the truck. So yes you could (under EPA Rules) fit a newer compliant engine but NOT a newer non-compliant one. The resulting package would be non-compliant and not covered by an exemption. Change the engine type and you change the configuration and lose the exemption, irrespective of the age of the 2 components (truck and engine).

Now if it can be determined that the DOT exemption is also conditional (as I have been told but cant prove) then you could not fit a newer EPA compliant engine as it would still change the configuration of the truck and you would lose the DOT exemption. If the DOT exemption is not conditional after import then you could put your LSx or whatever US engine in but not one of the later LR diesels.

Is a 2.8L TGV EPA compliant? The 2.5NA, 2.5TD, 200TDi, 300TDi, TD5 and LR 2.4 TDCi are not and cannot legally be fitted to anything here that was not fitted with them at the factory originally. If the 2.8 is then it will hinge on the DOT question.

You should note that companies like ECR and others that have done these types of swaps in the past have put in the paperwork that the truck can only be driven off road once the new engine is fitted.

ABSOLUTELY the 2.8L TGV is EPA compliant - ICON 4x4 which Hand Makes FJ, Bronco and Willies vehicles out of LA offers the engine in the FJ package. It is a new vehicle and has to be compliant as does the rest of the vehicle. Check out the website and look for yourself (http://www.icon4x4.com/overview/fj/specs/gen-ii-diesel).

So how could you purchase that engine in a US made vehicle (with no disclaimer that you can't use it on road) and yet you can not swap one into your Defender? The DOT question relates nothing to emissions standards but to other standards - Airbag, Crash Safety etc. based on year of manufacture. Therefore any Compliant US engine placed into a Defender does not lose the DOT federalization. Take for example the Nissan Skyline. The engine and emission was EPA compliant - yes? However the vehicle was not compliant according to the NHTSA. Neither has anything to do with the other.

So irrespective of it being a Cummings 4BT, Mercedes OM617, 2.8L TGV or for that matter any approved Isuzu or other Diesel I do read the regulations as such that any engine swap as long as the emissions are not degraded by the swap then there should not be an issue.

NOW there is an issue on the State level which is something that depends on where you live - Texas is completely different than California or perhaps Arizona. We have no emissions standards for Passenger Vehicles with Diesel Engines.
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  #142  
Old May 20th, 2013, 10:36 PM
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My question to the board is: if I brought a D90 with a 200 tdi engine that has papers on both the body and the engine from the UK proven that it is not stolen, will it pass through the ports next year?
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  #143  
Old May 20th, 2013, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by couga861900 View Post
My question to the board is: if I brought a D90 with a 200 tdi engine that has papers on both the body and the engine from the UK proven that it is not stolen, will it pass through the ports next year?
Only if the VIN says it is supposed to have a 200TDI. Everything on the VIN code must match what is on the truck (body style, driving side, engine...). As it can't be 25 years old and have a factory 200TDI, there is no way it will make it in.
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  #144  
Old May 20th, 2013, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by couga861900 View Post
My question to the board is: if I brought a D90 with a 200 tdi engine that has papers on both the body and the engine from the UK proven that it is not stolen, will it pass through the ports next year?
Seems to be so much more than the engine that matters to CDP.
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  #145  
Old May 20th, 2013, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by couga861900 View Post
My question to the board is: if I brought a D90 with a 200 tdi engine that has papers on both the body and the engine from the UK proven that it is not stolen, will it pass through the ports next year?
Take it from someone who has gone through 5 months of this. As long as the VIN code shows that it is supposed to have a 200tdi engine - yes. Also as long as there is no mechanical changes - NO AC installed, no Roverdrive installed, nothing installed that was not installed when it came off the factory line. Its ok to have new paint, seats, carpet, bolt on BS - but no modern stuff like Reverse camera systems etc. You will be fine.

Expect a delay and a nerve racking experience - Oh and make sure the VIN on the Engine and the VIN on the Chassis match. No Galvenized Chassis replacement - that will get you gigged every time. Also if it is a LHD or RHD it better be that way when it gets off the boat. After you get it here - go to town have a ball - swap the Chasis, change to LHD, drop in another Engine, Add AC - pimp your ride.
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  #146  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
That's the first I've heard the ECR did those conversions under the guise of off road use only. Two thoughts. Are retailers making the same caveat? Surprised I've yet to see that caveat on their website.
Mike stated it when asked how he did those conversions. I think it was in the Expo thread.

No they don't put it on the web site but they do put it in the fine print if they want to avoid problems.
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  #147  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
Mike stated it when asked how he did those conversions. I think it was in the Expo thread.

No they don't put it on the web site but they do put it in the fine print if they want to avoid problems.
So if I understand you correctly every 300tdi conversion is essentially not legal to drive on a road and is for off road use only? Therefore if you want to take the Landy out it better be on a trailer until you are off public roads?
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  #148  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:27 PM
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Defender 90 - Successful import

My ninety was released last week after coming through Baltimore, it took just over a week to be cleared. My broker said it was highly unusual for a vehicle on an electronic entry to get flagged for inspection by DOT, although having since read this post I now understand why.

I knew none of this until today when I read this. I bought the ninety as an indestructable run around for NYC. Luckily I went for something that looked original, having never owned a Land Rover before i didn't know what I was looking for. Its a 1986 LR 90 4C REG and looks pretty well used and original. The only modifications are Disco wheels and a small side window in the hard top which I am guessing is a modification from new to avoid paying commercial vehicle tax in the UK back in 1986.

Anyway I'm pleased I found this forum, there seem to be some knowlegable people on here.
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  #149  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SuffolkBoy View Post
My ninety was released last week after coming through Baltimore, it took just over a week to be cleared. My broker said it was highly unusual for a vehicle on an electronic entry to get flagged for inspection by DOT, although having since read this post I now understand why.

I knew none of this until today when I read this. I bought the ninety as an indestructable run around for NYC. Luckily I went for something that looked original, having never owned a Land Rover before i didn't know what I was looking for. Its a 1986 LR 90 4C REG and looks pretty well used and original. The only modifications are Disco wheels and a small side window in the hard top which I am guessing is a modification from new to avoid paying commercial vehicle tax in the UK back in 1986.

Anyway I'm pleased I found this forum, there seem to be some knowlegable people on here.
Welcome!
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  #150  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bsjbrown View Post
ABSOLUTELY the 2.8L TGV is EPA compliant - ICON 4x4 which Hand Makes FJ, Bronco and Willies vehicles out of LA offers the engine in the FJ package. It is a new vehicle and has to be compliant as does the rest of the vehicle. Check out the website and look for yourself (http://www.icon4x4.com/overview/fj/specs/gen-ii-diesel).

So how could you purchase that engine in a US made vehicle (with no disclaimer that you can't use it on road) and yet you can not swap one into your Defender? The DOT question relates nothing to emissions standards but to other standards - Airbag, Crash Safety etc. based on year of manufacture. Therefore any Compliant US engine placed into a Defender does not lose the DOT federalization. Take for example the Nissan Skyline. The engine and emission was EPA compliant - yes? However the vehicle was not compliant according to the NHTSA. Neither has anything to do with the other.

So irrespective of it being a Cummings 4BT, Mercedes OM617, 2.8L TGV or for that matter any approved Isuzu or other Diesel I do read the regulations as such that any engine swap as long as the emissions are not degraded by the swap then there should not be an issue.

NOW there is an issue on the State level which is something that depends on where you live - Texas is completely different than California or perhaps Arizona. We have no emissions standards for Passenger Vehicles with Diesel Engines.

We're getting pretty far adrift here so I am not sure what your asking? We were talking about putting non-compliant engines in that are younger than the truck but still over 21 and being OK. I told you that I had asked the EPA this very question and they had said no because it voided the exemption based on original configuration. Doesn't matter if the newer engine is cleaner or whatever its still non-approved and not original so it creates a non-compliant package that has no exemption.

Which engine purchased in a US made vehicle are you asking about? Only engine available in Defenders sold new here in the US was the RV8. You can run a 2.5NA and 2.5TD right now if you bring in a truck that had one in from the factory because the rest of the truck is over 25 and can gain an exemption on entry. You can bring in a 200TDi if you want but it cant be fitted to anything even though it is over 21.

The DOT exemption loss comment was based on the premise that it is conditional on the vehicle's configuration same as it is on import. Even though DOT cares nothing about emissions if the engine is changed the vehicle configuration is changed. Hence the supposition that the DOT exemption could be lost in that scenario.

That's good news if the 2.8 has a type approval. Doesn't say it does but it does say they will fit one. If true then it means there may actually be a legal light duty diesel option finally. Maybe they can chime in with details as they are on the board?

Any discussion on the state rules is pointless as they are all different and often contradictory. Conforming to state rules if they exist however is also a false sense of security as you are still afoul of the fed ones. Then it just comes down to a debate on risk and chances of getting caught. If this was just you wanting to fit an engine to your truck then I would just suggest you go quiet and do whatever you want to it. If you want to set up a business doing this type of thing however and selling them as you suggested then I would think its better to be on the right side of the rules considering the current climate.

------ Follow up post added May 20th, 2013 08:30 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsjbrown View Post
So if I understand you correctly every 300tdi conversion is essentially not legal to drive on a road and is for off road use only? Therefore if you want to take the Landy out it better be on a trailer until you are off public roads?
Apparently so.

------ Follow up post added May 20th, 2013 08:31 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuffolkBoy View Post
My ninety was released last week after coming through Baltimore, it took just over a week to be cleared. My broker said it was highly unusual for a vehicle on an electronic entry to get flagged for inspection by DOT, although having since read this post I now understand why.

I knew none of this until today when I read this. I bought the ninety as an indestructable run around for NYC. Luckily I went for something that looked original, having never owned a Land Rover before i didn't know what I was looking for. Its a 1986 LR 90 4C REG and looks pretty well used and original. The only modifications are Disco wheels and a small side window in the hard top which I am guessing is a modification from new to avoid paying commercial vehicle tax in the UK back in 1986.

Anyway I'm pleased I found this forum, there seem to be some knowlegable people on here.

x2 on the welcome.
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  #151  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuffolkBoy View Post
My ninety was released last week after coming through Baltimore, it took just over a week to be cleared. My broker said it was highly unusual for a vehicle on an electronic entry to get flagged for inspection by DOT, although having since read this post I now understand why.

I knew none of this until today when I read this. I bought the ninety as an indestructable run around for NYC. Luckily I went for something that looked original, having never owned a Land Rover before i didn't know what I was looking for. Its a 1986 LR 90 4C REG and looks pretty well used and original. The only modifications are Disco wheels and a small side window in the hard top which I am guessing is a modification from new to avoid paying commercial vehicle tax in the UK back in 1986.

Anyway I'm pleased I found this forum, there seem to be some knowlegable people on here.
Double back at you on the Welcome. The flagging of the Defenders is more frequent so the mods you are describing are pretty much insignificant. Just wait patiently for the clearance. It will be nerve racking but it will eventually happen.
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  #152  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:47 PM
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Enough!
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  #153  
Old May 20th, 2013, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
We're getting pretty far adrift here so I am not sure what your asking? We were talking about putting non-compliant engines in that are younger than the truck but still over 21 and being OK. I told you that I had asked the EPA this very question and they had said no because it voided the exemption based on original configuration. Doesn't matter if the newer engine is cleaner or whatever its still non-approved and not original so it creates a non-compliant package that has no exemption.

Which engine purchased in a US made vehicle are you asking about? Only engine available in Defenders sold new here in the US was the RV8. You can run a 2.5NA and 2.5TD right now if you bring in a truck that had one in from the factory because the rest of the truck is over 25 and can gain an exemption on entry. You can bring in a 200TDi if you want but it cant be fitted to anything even though it is over 21.

The DOT exemption loss comment was based on the premise that it is conditional on the vehicle's configuration same as it is on import. Even though DOT cares nothing about emissions if the engine is changed the vehicle configuration is changed. Hence the supposition that the DOT exemption could be lost in that scenario.

That's good news if the 2.8 has a type approval. Doesn't say it does but it does say they will fit one. If true then it means there may actually be a legal light duty diesel option finally. Maybe they can chime in with details as they are on the board?

Any discussion on the state rules is pointless as they are all different and often contradictory. Conforming to state rules if they exist however is also a false sense of security as you are still afoul of the fed ones. Then it just comes down to a debate on risk and chances of getting caught. If this was just you wanting to fit an engine to your truck then I would just suggest you go quiet and do whatever you want to it. If you want to set up a business doing this type of thing however and selling them as you suggested then I would think its better to be on the right side of the rules considering the current climate.

------ Follow up post added May 20th, 2013 08:30 PM ------



Apparently so.

------ Follow up post added May 20th, 2013 08:31 PM ------




x2 on the welcome.
Ok - deferring to you on this - I would agree it is a "grey" area to pull a 2.5NA or 2.5TD and swap with a 200TDI or 300TDI and thereby have a legal vehicle. Question remains - why has it been done commercially and why are those vehicles on the road, titled and sold openly? Thinking based on that - they would be considered legal vehicles still as title for the state they are titled in is still valid? Have seen a few of them with my own eyes and they are registered, titled and on the road.

Now swapping with a newer US EPA approved engine - take your pick - should clearly be no problem and the 2.8L TGV is that engine choice for me when the time comes. The problem with the EPA is that you will get lip service from them - dealing in Environmental Law - specifically oil & gas related exposures - I understand who and what the EPA is. Getting a clear answer from them is impossible without going through a myriad of bureaucratic BS that would make your head spin.

Agreed we got off topic so lets table this. Suffice to say an import problem would be having a Vehicle come in that has a 200tdi or 300tdi where that engine was not original equipment for the chassis during that year of mfg. So in that we do agree.
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  #154  
Old May 21st, 2013, 08:04 AM
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  #155  
Old May 21st, 2013, 08:29 AM
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  #156  
Old May 21st, 2013, 08:43 AM
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If I was CBP I would be making my way from Baltimore to your friend's house to see if he got that cable fixed yet.
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  #157  
Old May 21st, 2013, 08:59 AM
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  #158  
Old May 23rd, 2013, 10:15 PM
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Its In and Found out why the Long Delay

Boomer is safe in Garage in Dallas after a fun trip in the slow lane up I-45 from Houston. Believe it or not I actually met the CBP officer who was inspecting my vehicle and 4 others in the bonded warehouse in Houston.

What may come as a surprise he was not a jackbooted goose stepping thug that I expected him to be. I asked him why the long delay expecting to hear the "budget cut" sob story and actually heard something more interesting.

It appears there is a rash of Defender theft in the EU. Most of these Defenders are making their way to the US. Some of them are compliant, others are not. The CBP is having to communicate with authorities across the pond on every import to determine if they are stolen vehicles in the various countries of origin. As you can imagine this takes time as in some cases the defenders will come from various different locations and then will be shipped from a port outside of their country of original origin. This and the additional task of making sure they are compliant vehicles is slowing them down significantly.

He admitted that of the 5 he looked at including mine three of them were in fact stolen or were VIN tampered. The appeal to the thieves is the high price we are willing to pay for a defender and the ability for the thieves to get them here quickly and our Customs not communicating with the other EU authorities.

Just some interesting information.
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  #159  
Old May 23rd, 2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bsjbrown View Post
It appears there is a rash of Defender theft in the EU. Most of these Defenders are making their way to the US. Some of them are compliant, others are not. The CBP is having to communicate with authorities across the pond on every import to determine if they are stolen vehicles in the various countries of origin. As you can imagine this takes time as in some cases the defenders will come from various different locations and then will be shipped from a port outside of their country of original origin. This and the additional task of making sure they are compliant vehicles is slowing them down significantly.

He admitted that of the 5 he looked at including mine three of them were in fact stolen or were VIN tampered. The appeal to the thieves is the high price we are willing to pay for a defender and the ability for the thieves to get them here quickly and our Customs not communicating with the other EU authorities.

Just some interesting information.
Defender theft certainly has always been a big problem for owners in the UK, both to break for parts, ship abroad whole, or just for "shits and giggles" by lowlife scum. I experienced this first hand a few years ago when some of the aforementioned lowlifes tried stealing my '94 200tdi D90 from where it was parked outside my house, causing $3500 worth of damage in the process, and only failing when I was woken at 3am, coming down stairs just to hear them driving off in their getaway car. In the last couple of month half a dozen or so Police forces in the UK have issued specific warnings to Defender owners because of the recent increase in thefts.
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  #160  
Old May 23rd, 2013, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael110 View Post
Defender theft certainly has always been a big problem for owners in the UK, both to break for parts, ship abroad whole, or just for "shits and giggles" by lowlife scum. I experienced this first hand a few years ago when some of the aforementioned lowlifes tried stealing my '94 200tdi D90 from where it was parked outside my house, causing $3500 worth of damage in the process, and only failing when I was woken at 3am, coming down stairs just to hear them driving off in their getaway car. In the last couple of month half a dozen or so Police forces in the UK have issued specific warnings to Defender owners because of the recent increase in thefts.
Did this attempted theft occur in MD??
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