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  #1  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:16 PM
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DC100 Scrapped? Back to the Drawing board?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/life...wn-on-Defender

Anyone else heard this? I kinda liked this design
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  #2  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:34 PM
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http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ad.php?t=42179

There are worse looking cars out there... But even if you think it looks cool, can you really picture it being the replacement of the Defender? I can't... A JK resembles a defender more than the dc100...
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  #3  
Old January 4th, 2013, 10:49 AM
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Thank god. That thing was awful. To me, it looks like it should have been a next generation Freelander.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 09:55 AM
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The Pretender was abysmal. Glad to hear someone over there talks sense. I still believe few at land rover have the life long association and interest in the product anymore. Most of these people are simply car execs making the rounds.

How hard can this platform be to configure. Jeep has it figured out on a product with an entry price half it's cost.
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  #5  
Old January 10th, 2013, 03:07 AM
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Jerry McGovern should be fired, plain and simple.

For trying to make a Freelander pass as a Defender replacement.
For not giving a crap about the enthusiasts.
For saying the words Defender, heritage and DC100 in the same sentence.
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  #6  
Old January 10th, 2013, 07:53 AM
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Is it a crazy idea to keep the iconic design and update the deficiencies vs more modern vehicles? Add airbags, greater side impact and rollover protection into the base vehicle then offer several packages that allow a more utilitarian vehicle become a more luxury vehicle with broader appeal, even offer the newer suspension system as an option? I know some design elements will have to change to address EU regs on pedestrian safety etc. The price point issue for the base vehicle obviously needs to be addressed to be competitive as well.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 08:30 AM
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Is it a crazy idea to keep the iconic design and update the deficiencies vs more modern vehicles? Add airbags, greater side impact and rollover protection into the base vehicle then offer several packages that allow a more utilitarian vehicle become a more luxury vehicle with broader appeal, even offer the newer suspension system as an option? I know some design elements will have to change to address EU regs on pedestrian safety etc. The price point issue for the base vehicle obviously needs to be addressed to be competitive as well.
To a regular person, no, but to a manufacturer, yes. You want them to offer multiple version of the same vehicle with different suspension systems? Thats a ton of engineering and re engineering and then a ton of money that will have to be spent getting each version tested against standards. That is going to push the price up and thats the last thing that they want to do. Wasnt the plan to keep the current farm implement version and offer a more comfortable version as well. Something like Toyota with the 70 series and the Prado? The 70 series is still leaf sprung and utilitarian while the Prado is more like the LR3.

They need something like what they have. Something that can take many forms and thats the problem. They need to be able to make one vehicle that can make everyone happy. Jeep has kept the same basic shape and met EU and US standards. Its not impossible to do. The other thing though is that at some point, LR just needs to say F it and do what they see their market wanting. LR doesnt need to appease enthusiasts. The population of enthusiasts versus buying public is so minuscule it doesnt really matter. They need to look at their market, figure out what is there, then design for that, throw in some "heritage" and put it out there. They just need to get the basics in there.

When the D2 became the LR3, people complained. LR sold plenty, including to some people who owned Discos. When Porsche released the Cayenne and Panamera, people complained. They sold more Cayennes than 911s in 2012, including to people who are Porsche "enthusiasts." Jeep brought the 4 door out and the enthusiasts were up in arms...then two years later were buying those 'un Jeep' vehicles.
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  #8  
Old January 10th, 2013, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
They need to look at their market, figure out what is there, then design for that, throw in some "heritage" and put it out there. They just need to get the basics in there.
One question that's been going through my head is, if the Defender 110 (let's say, with airbags, but without a diesel) was priced at $5k under the LR4, would anyone but enthusiasts buy the Defender?

If not $5k under the LR4, then how about $10k under? $20k under? And at $20k under, we are still talking a base price of $30k....
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  #9  
Old January 10th, 2013, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
One question that's been going through my head is, if the Defender 110 (let's say, with airbags, but without a diesel) was priced at $5k under the LR4, would anyone but enthusiasts buy the Defender?

If not $5k under the LR4, then how about $10k under? $20k under? And at $20k under, we are still talking a base price of $30k....
LR has gone upmarket into the arms of people looking for it to be there. The Land Cruiser is failing as an upmarket offering. The problem is, where do you put it? The Defender will cost as much as a Freelander/ Evoque? Dont think so.
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  #10  
Old January 10th, 2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jvelador View Post
Jerry McGovern should be fired, plain and simple.

For trying to make a Freelander pass as a Defender replacement.
For not giving a crap about the enthusiasts.
For saying the words Defender, heritage and DC100 in the same sentence.
While I think Gerry McGovern truly botched the DC100... the RR4, LR3, and Evoque I think were all spot on for what they were trying to do. Freelander 2/LR2 maybe not so much, but it's always been kind of the red-headed child.

To be honest, I think too many people from the Range Rover design team had a hand in the DC100. I don't know if this is true or not, it just feels that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viggen View Post
The other thing though is that at some point, LR just needs to say F it and do what they see their market wanting. LR doesnt need to appease enthusiasts. The population of enthusiasts versus buying public is so minuscule it doesnt really matter. They need to look at their market, figure out what is there, then design for that, throw in some "heritage" and put it out there. They just need to get the basics in there.

When the D2 became the LR3, people complained. LR sold plenty, including to some people who owned Discos. When Porsche released the Cayenne and Panamera, people complained. They sold more Cayennes than 911s in 2012, including to people who are Porsche "enthusiasts." Jeep brought the 4 door out and the enthusiasts were up in arms...then two years later were buying those 'un Jeep' vehicles.
The problem LR is wrestling with is that they pin so much on "heritage". Even in the new Land Rover San Diego dealership that is only 5 years old or so, and the new one up in Carlsbad, both have huge wall-sized photos of Series and Defender trucks everywhere. Some dealerships have Series trucks out front by the dealership sign. Believe it or not, talk to some of the salespeople, and they will tell you people buying a Range Rover Mall Assault Vehicle like that. The latest "Above and Beyond" commercial has Series and Defender trucks in it, although the US version neglects to show any new Defenders in it to avoid any pesky customers coming in asking for one.

So they are still using the tough trucks as a marketing tool, and I really do think there is a market for a true Jeep competitor. You can't drive more than 1/4 mile in San Diego without seeing a Wrangler, and almost as many FJ cruisers.

The market is there for a US legal defender. If they could put a TDI in it that gets 25+ MPG they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lot... and amazingly Ford is running the new Puma through EPA certification. In addition, a new high MPG vehicle can offset the FFRR for CAFE fuel economy standards. JLR is getting real good at all aluminum design, so stick with that, make it a marketing point to people that have snow and salt. Offer ridiculous "expedition" packages that dress it all up a la Camel Trophy or Dakar style so that the poseurs have something to go to starbucks in. To top it all off, launch it with a Superbowl commercial clearly showing the diesel sound as it climbs rocks and muddy slopes, apply liberal vintage film of CT, expeditions, etc. Poke fun at Wranglers and FJs with their puny non-torquey motors. That attracts the people who will really get it dirty, as well as the "snob hipsters" who want the indie underdog.

It's all there, ready for the taking.... the question is if Land Rover understands the USA market beyond Range Rover sales well enough to get it.
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  #11  
Old January 10th, 2013, 09:40 AM
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To top it all off, launch it with a Superbowl commercial clearly showing the diesel sound as it climbs rocks
The Tdi climbing rocks does sound wicked. Whistling, hissing rock rage.
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  #12  
Old January 10th, 2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
Every couple years they float the 'next defender' Its usually a styling exercise in the use of pointless plastic. The only one that has ever appealed to me is project Juno.

-Jeff
Looks like a defender/ RRC mix in olive drab. Kinda wierd lookin IMO.
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  #13  
Old January 10th, 2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navydevildoc View Post
While I think Gerry McGovern truly botched the DC100... the RR4, LR3, and Evoque I think were all spot on for what they were trying to do. Freelander 2/LR2 maybe not so much, but it's always been kind of the red-headed child.

To be honest, I think too many people from the Range Rover design team had a hand in the DC100. I don't know if this is true or not, it just feels that way.



The problem LR is wrestling with is that they pin so much on "heritage". Even in the new Land Rover San Diego dealership that is only 5 years old or so, and the new one up in Carlsbad, both have huge wall-sized photos of Series and Defender trucks everywhere. Some dealerships have Series trucks out front by the dealership sign. Believe it or not, talk to some of the salespeople, and they will tell you people buying a Range Rover Mall Assault Vehicle like that. The latest "Above and Beyond" commercial has Series and Defender trucks in it, although the US version neglects to show any new Defenders in it to avoid any pesky customers coming in asking for one.

So they are still using the tough trucks as a marketing tool, and I really do think there is a market for a true Jeep competitor. You can't drive more than 1/4 mile in San Diego without seeing a Wrangler, and almost as many FJ cruisers.

The market is there for a US legal defender. If they could put a TDI in it that gets 25+ MPG they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lot... and amazingly Ford is running the new Puma through EPA certification. In addition, a new high MPG vehicle can offset the FFRR for CAFE fuel economy standards. JLR is getting real good at all aluminum design, so stick with that, make it a marketing point to people that have snow and salt. Offer ridiculous "expedition" packages that dress it all up a la Camel Trophy or Dakar style so that the poseurs have something to go to starbucks in. To top it all off, launch it with a Superbowl commercial clearly showing the diesel sound as it climbs rocks and muddy slopes, apply liberal vintage film of CT, expeditions, etc. Poke fun at Wranglers and FJs with their puny non-torquey motors. That attracts the people who will really get it dirty, as well as the "snob hipsters" who want the indie underdog.

It's all there, ready for the taking.... the question is if Land Rover understands the USA market beyond Range Rover sales well enough to get it.
This is pretty much what I said in the other thread on this. You are 100% spot on with what it needs to be and how they should market it and who will really be buying it. The problem is LR's marketing and sales plan. They put all their eggs into the high price, low volume strategy. The problem is that they now have an ambitious goal of a really high sales volume, but no cheap product to sell and no foothold in the market. The cheapest product to buy in the US starts at $35k+ with the LR2. People looking to spend $25k-$35k are not looking at LR for a vehicle because they don't offer it. They are looking at Toyota and Jeep. If they want to sell a lot and in the US it would have to be right around the same price as a Jeep to truly be successful. They could get away with maybe a touch higher if they are kitted out better, but not by much. Their best chance, in my opinion, would be to come in priced the same as Jeep Unlimited Sahara models w/ a diesel powered vehicle BEFORE any other makers offer a diesel option.
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  #14  
Old January 10th, 2013, 01:36 PM
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The only one that has ever appealed to me is project Juno.

-Jeff
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  #15  
Old January 10th, 2013, 02:05 PM
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The Defender design is iconic and should go on unchanged for another century. Except it keeps getting more plasticky. Rover should cut that shit out and invest in a few new galv. tanks at the plant. Less plastic, more galv. Maybe offer the plastic interior/leather/carpet/foglights/20" rims package for those that like that stuff and offer a stripped down version as the base model.

Oh and get the freakin thing US certified already for cryin out loud. G wagen sales don't tarnish the MB name do they?

~Steve
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  #16  
Old January 10th, 2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by navydevildoc View Post
The problem LR is wrestling with is that they pin so much on "heritage". Even in the new Land Rover San Diego dealership that is only 5 years old or so, and the new one up in Carlsbad, both have huge wall-sized photos of Series and Defender trucks everywhere. Some dealerships have Series trucks out front by the dealership sign. Believe it or not, talk to some of the salespeople, and they will tell you people buying a Range Rover Mall Assault Vehicle like that. The latest "Above and Beyond" commercial has Series and Defender trucks in it, although the US version neglects to show any new Defenders in it to avoid any pesky customers coming in asking for one.

So they are still using the tough trucks as a marketing tool, and I really do think there is a market for a true Jeep competitor. You can't drive more than 1/4 mile in San Diego without seeing a Wrangler, and almost as many FJ cruisers...
The Defender might be good competition for the Jeep but they will never be able to meet it price point to price point. It just wont happen. Its built overseas and then has to be shipped here and taxed. By the time it is done, it will be significantly more expensive than a Wrangler, even the 4 door one (which sells more than the 2 door). There are tons of FJCs running around because Toyota has just put it on a 4Runner frame, which is also the same as the Prado frame used worldwide, allowing a significantly less amount of money production. People have already complained that a Defender riding on an LR4 frame is a most unacceptable thing. So, there is no place to save money there. Ford federalizing the Puma is only half the battle. LR will then have to take that motor, and any other they plan on offering, and supply a few copies for crash testing. Theres more money.

Jeep still uses flat fenders in their adverts knowing full well that the flat fenders have more in common with side by side John Deere Gators than with the current JK. Jeep has retained the general shape but updated, and upsized, everything else. There is no reason that LR cannot do that with the DC100, or whatever they come up with. A rolling brick isnt going to work with pedestrian safety but they can keep the same greenhouse design and retain the "heritage" that they are looking for. I am not too sure that it is "all there for the taking" though. Unless it offers a better overall package than the top of the line Wrangler Rubicon, it wont be. The Jeep gets better and better with every single generation, the FJC submarine is pretty decent as well and to get a LR to compete at that price point, well, will be difficult at best. LR might have an off road heritage that we all know cannot compare to the 70+ year run of Jeeps history in the American market. LR hasnt been an off road heritage vehicle in America in a long time.

It has to be more than a competitor in the market, it has to be the best in its segment in order to be worth LRs bringing it the US. I realize that the average LR buyer has access to more funds and buys mostly into the 'look,' whether it be blingy socialite status or bolt on ladders and snorkels, but realistically, what is the market for a north of $50k, 2 door SUV like? The south of $32k Jeep Wrangler was struggling with only two doors. Jeep is setting Wrangler sales records because it can offer a 4 door Wrangler AND a 4 door luxury SUV (JGC) for the same amount. I doubt that LR can do the same. If they cut down an LR4 chassis, threw a different body on it, it might be a competitor but that means IFS/IRS which alienates purist "enthusiasts" who, lets be honest with ourselves, arent a blip on the LR marketing machine.
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  #17  
Old January 11th, 2013, 08:26 AM
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Personally I'm of the opinion that theres nothing Land Rover can do at this point to the Defender line that would be satisfying and I would not likely buy a new Defender given there are plenty of Defenders in the world and plenty of great suppliers supporting the Defender to keep me and my friends and family happy for the rest if our lives. Hell I'm driving to work today an 83 110 RHD 2.5NAD for a reason. I initially brought it here to flip but decided damn this fun to drive. I can't see the logic in trying to replicate this vehicle. It would be tough doing it justice. There's a reason the Defender line is iconic and it should be respectfully left alone. Let all the small shops support that clientele looking for 22's as an "upgrade". Hopefully Land Rover will let the Defender bow out gracefully.

Clay
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  #18  
Old January 11th, 2013, 09:42 AM
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I've got it all figured out for them...

They've already modernized the doors. The technology exists to to stamp out a one piece bulkhead-floorpan-seatbox (design it to be RHD or LHD with minimal changes).
A lot of the newer Jap cars have dashes that "go both ways", symetrical with a gauge pod on the steering column, would be very easy to design one with airbags for the D.

They could either stamp out one piece front fenders or mold one piece units from plastic. They could make rear bodys with only a few components robotically welded together instead of the labor-intensive riveting of a hundred parts. Continue using existing chassis and axles, use Puma drivetrain.


They could have a Defender that looks like the old one, performs like the old one, and compete in the world and US market, just like Wrangler.
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  #19  
Old January 11th, 2013, 09:50 AM
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Every couple years they float the 'next defender' Its usually a styling exercise in the use of pointless plastic. The only one that has ever appealed to me is project Juno.

-Jeff

At first I thought that was a IH Scout
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  #20  
Old January 13th, 2013, 04:25 AM
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The Jeeps here in AU have a diesel. Not sure what engine though. I also see 15-20 Cruisers for everyone 1 Defender I see. There is a market for a new Defender. I'm just not sure LR tata wants to be in it.
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