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  #121  
Old December 15th, 2012, 04:47 PM
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Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Mental health reform is the key to all of this. Everyone, regardless of political affiliation should vote mental health. If you think it doesn't affect you, you're wrong.

"One in four adults—approximately 57.7 million Americans— experience a mental health disorder in a given year. One in 17 lives with a serious mental illness such as schizophrenia, major depression or bipolar disorder and about one in 10 children live with a serious mental or emotional disorder."

Last spring I had a homeless guy jump 12 stories and land right next to my Defender while I was in it. It was a mess. I called it in. I don't wish that experience on my worst enemy. Haunted me for months. These things are not reported due to copycats so we have no idea really how common it is if you're not in law enforcement, fire department or etc.

Unless you prefer to live in an episode of The Walking Dead there's no excuse for not doing something about this. I would gladly pay more taxes or whatever else it takes if it meant reducing the number of mentally ill wandering around downtown. Sweeping it under the carpet won't work anymore when you're knee deep in it.

A more intelligent and nuanced approach to gun regulation is also required. I come from a law enforcement family and I have a CCL. I found it quite terrifying how easy it was to get the license and how inexperienced many of the people in my class were. I understand they were there to learn but I don't see how a few hours and a slide show would make a difference. It's should not be possible to purchase a handgun without proper training but it is. Technically you can get a CCL without firing a shot. Where is the sense in that? Anyone who is interested and serious about handguns should not only embrace education and training but enjoy it as well. I know i do. If more rigorous training was required for a CCL there could also be the possibility that CCL holders could enjoy greater privileges. Why not?

More serious consequences for unsecured firearms are also necessary. Just this past year a kid blew another kids head off here in Portland after finding the parents gun. This is preventable by incentivizing/punishing improper gun handling and storage.

Complex issues require complex solutions. Both sides of the gun debate are naively trying to apply one simplistic solution to a series of complex problems, neither of which will work. This is why the debate (and the legislation) is going nowhere. Not doing anything won't work. Banning all guns won't work either. We need a more intelligent and nuanced approach to this if we want improvement.

With great (fire) power comes great responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell View Post
I will say the same thing I said last week with the OR shooting. I bet both come out that these guys where both insane and the family probably tried to get them in a hospital but couldn't get it done. WHY a parent would have these guns in their house when they know their kid is deeply disturbed is just unbelievable, and if he somehow bought them using her name then that is another problem all together.

We need better parents, better pysch 5150(when you threaten to kill peolpe you lose your rights)....and some small changes to increase scrutiny on who is buying the guns and what can be bought.

I used to have a CC permit and I live in Philadelphia. I let it expire years ago. I honestly don't understand what the hell everyone is afraid of and why they need to have an arsenal of automatic weapons, extended clips, carry a gun 24hrs a day...ect. I never feel threatened and with my job I probably should. I have a gun at work and a gun at home. Honestly, I would probably do the smart thing and just give up my shit and call Allstate if I was being robbed.

I know I guy who owned a business in Phila who was held up at gun point. Instead of just giving up inventory, he pulled a gun on the assholes and took one to the head.. and never woke up. Other people in the store were shot as a result as well. He was an old timer with a CC. He should have just laid down and called the insurance Co. after. Very sad.

Having everyone armed isn't the answer, unless everyone is a trained professional sharp shooter. Otherwise for the few times it may have helped over the years it would go bad many many more times.

I had to go through more trouble adopting my 4yr old golden retriever who can't get out of his own way then it takes to buy a gun. Say what you want but that is just not right.

my 2cents.
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  #122  
Old December 15th, 2012, 05:01 PM
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"The victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings each had between three and 11 wounds, Chief State Medical Examiner H. Wayne Carver III said Saturday afternoon."

Someone explain to me again why Title 9(a) violated the 2nd Amendment? It helped get crap like the TEC-9 off and hi round clips off the street. Sort of like the high capacity hand gun, designed to penetrate body armor, that was just sold on these threads. It was a cool gun, and I thought my buddy was going to buy it, but I think this stuff should be left for the miliary, feds, and police. Not your average Joe. Limit the CCW Joes to a revolver.
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  #123  
Old December 15th, 2012, 05:11 PM
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Carl Jonsson
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Incorrect. (At least) goes back to 1966: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/20/...past-50-years/

More info here:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...-shootings-map

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...united-states/

Quote:
Originally Posted by woldd90 View Post
These kinds of things only started happening in the 90's with Columbine. Guns have been around forever, so that is not the reason. In fact, my father used to give his .22 to the bus drivers so he could go hunting after school in the corn fields outside Chicago.

So, is it the demise of the family structure, the endless hormones injected into our food or violence in movies, video games or the sensationalism of the media?

Or could it be all the prescription drugs the kids are on? A few years back, teachers were pushing parents to get their kids on riddelin and other types of attention disorder drugs. When my son's boy scout troop goes on a camping trip 30% of the kids bring a bag full of prescription drugs. And, at least 8 kids have autism, asbergers or similar symptoms. I don't think we actually know all the side effects of 12 years of drug used may cause.
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  #124  
Old December 15th, 2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
"The victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings each had between three and 11 wounds, Chief State Medical Examiner H. Wayne Carver III said Saturday afternoon."

Someone explain to me again why Title 9(a) violated the 2nd Amendment? It helped get crap like the TEC-9 off and hi round clips off the street. Sort of like the high capacity hand gun, designed to penetrate body armor, that was just sold on these threads. It was a cool gun, and I thought my buddy was going to buy it, but I think this stuff should be left for the miliary, feds, and police. Not your average Joe. Limit the CCW Joes to a revolver.
Russell, I know with young kids you watch a lot of cartoons, and perhaps affected your view of reality However ... do not doubt for a minute that criminals do wear Armor.

The assholes trying to checkout don't.

I do not have the stats, but I adventure to say that those you call AVERAGE JOE with CCW, have had some sort of intense training ( prior Mil, LEO , etc ).
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  #125  
Old December 15th, 2012, 05:48 PM
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More intense training the better.

You are right about the armor and it appears that the last few perps were wearing it or suitable vests to make them 'feel'/look like they were wearing. Can vests be tracked or is it cash and carry at your local gun show as well? BTW - My firm moved into the very 32-34 floors at 101 California after Pett & Martin moved out due to the shootings. I purchased a 92-FS shortly after. Chump change to what is out there these days.
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  #126  
Old December 15th, 2012, 06:15 PM
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Most Tactical Gear can be traced through the manufactures codes. These codes, alot of the times arent even on labels. Some even embed them at the fiber level. Here is a good link for fome useful stuff. http://www.bulletblocker.com/index.html
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  #127  
Old December 15th, 2012, 07:55 PM
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you can / or could have in the past buy Vests on eBay

Of course at gun shows are C&C, hell I have sold 2 of my "soon to expire" at a gun show
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  #128  
Old December 15th, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
I have to say that of all my experiences in Iraq, and all I could have experienced, none of it would compare to what those first responders had to witness going in that school. The thought of all those slaughtered and dying children in mass in the hallways and classrooms will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They need to be in our prayers as well. I don't know if I could hold it together overnight to process that crime scene.

There's a special place in hell for people that do things like this.
I'm glad you posted this... As an Iraq vet I though the exact same thing. Even as a father, the first responders have been the poor souls at the forefront of my mind. They will be forever scarred, many ruined. I pray that the families and all those affected can find strength to live.
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  #129  
Old December 16th, 2012, 01:39 PM
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I'm a hater. I understand that in today's society it's not generally acceptable. However, if you met me I think you would find me to be a kind and friendly person. Hating is not something I do easily or enjoy much.
To hate some son-of-a-bitch who goes in to a school and guns down helpless children is a perfectly logical, normal, healthy thing to do. If you do not hate such a person, then what do you reserve your hatred for?
I do not believe in withholding the shooter's name. I believe in dragging that piece of shit's carcass out into the street for people to kick, beat with sticks, and piss on as they feel necessary. Starting with those who were there and their families.
I can't speak for them but, if it were me, thats what I would want to do. Far better to burn out my hatred and move on with my life than to do some quasi-bury my head in the sand pretend it didn't happen and the guy never existed kind of thing.
What's the difference between mentally ill and evil? Can we sweep evil under the rug merely by saying anyone who would do such a thing is mentally ill? Evil is as we define it by it's nature, regardless of the mental health of the person who perpetrates it.
We live in a free society where mommy and daddy can raise a 20 year old self-absorbed child who was taught to have self esteem, even though they never earned it, who was taught they were special just because they existed. What a fucking mess. No wonder the kid goes bonkers when he finds the rest of the world is going to judge him on his merit, and he realizes he's just a worthless piece of shit... and then behaves like it.
The world has always been a dangerous place. It will always be a dangerous place. I do not believe that to handicap those who would fight for good is the path to defeating evil.

post script to rijosho, regarding the mall shooting:
Please... heaven forbid, I should find myself in a shopping mall unarmed and unable to defend myself from some shooting spree wacko, and you are there with access to a firearm... I beg of you, pick it up and pour as much lead into that fucker as you can. If you should happen to hit me with a stray round, you are already forgiven and I apologize for the burden you will carry with you after.
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  #130  
Old December 16th, 2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
"The victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings each had between three and 11 wounds, Chief State Medical Examiner H. Wayne Carver III said Saturday afternoon."

Someone explain to me again why Title 9(a) violated the 2nd Amendment? It helped get crap like the TEC-9 off and hi round clips off the street. Sort of like the high capacity hand gun, designed to penetrate body armor, that was just sold on these threads. It was a cool gun, and I thought my buddy was going to buy it, but I think this stuff should be left for the miliary, feds, and police. Not your average Joe. Limit the CCW Joes to a revolver.
I think a lot of what you are saying is based purely on media hype, not actual fact. I dont believe banning high capacity magazines would change much in these horrific situations. Have you seen how fast someone can change a magazine with a little bit of practice.
If you limit the weapons that law abiding citizens can own you basically guarantee that someone attacking you can/will have something better than you. I want someone robbing my house to at least think there is a chance I could have something better than they have.
Imagine you are out for a walk with your wife and kids and you are confronted by a group of five or six teenagers, I bet you would wish that six shooter in your pocket could carry just a few more rounds.
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  #131  
Old December 16th, 2012, 05:11 PM
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Passed through Newtown today on the way to NY, we will forever have those affected by this tragedy in our thoughts and prayers as we go by. Was nice to see the signs of support on the highway overpasses and the guy with the flag on display on the side of the highway since 9/11 now has 26 more small ones set up along side it in rememberance.
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  #132  
Old December 20th, 2012, 11:25 PM
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I was catching up on the news of the day and saw saw a video for this link I posted on saturday...the CEO said business is up 300 to 400%. Not hard to see why...http://www.bulletblocker.com/index.html
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  #133  
Old December 27th, 2012, 01:26 PM
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From Sandy Hook, thanks to all of your thoughts, prayers and well wishes. Two of my sons, Matty - age 7 and CJ - age 9 were in the school that day. CJ was hid in a closet by his music teacher while they prayed together and he is doing OK. Matty was directly across the hall from the two classrooms that were involved. He is a mess. According to his teacher, it sounded like canons were going off, children were screaming and he heard it all. SWAT teams escorted them out of their room at gunpoint while walking over the prinicipal, school phsychologist and gunman. They had blood on their shoes. They were told to close their eyes, but as any 7 year old boy would do, he opened his and saw things that no one should ever see. As the days have passed, it only gets worse and worse. Trust me, I know that we are the lucky ones. We have several very close friends who lost their babies that day and they will never be the same. The story as Matty tells it is that they heard loud banging so his teacher turned off their lights and directed them to their cubbies (small locker type places for jackets and back packs) which went down the center of the classroom and faced away from the door for safety. After they sat in the cubbies, Matty went on to say that Mrs. Wexler (his teacher) lined up chairs in front of them and then laid across the chairs and sang to them. She would have taken a bullet for my son, how do you thank someone for that? We are struggling with the motive because if it was truly random, my son being alive today came down to this maniac going left into a classroom instead of right which would have been Matty's classroom, Again, from Sandy Hook, THANK YOU ALL. We truly feel your prayers!!!
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  #134  
Old December 27th, 2012, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cthoekenga
From Sandy Hook, thanks to all of your thoughts, prayers and well wishes. Two of my sons, Matty - age 7 and CJ - age 9 were in the school that day. CJ was hid in a closet by his music teacher while they prayed together and he is doing OK. Matty was directly across the hall from the two classrooms that were involved. He is a mess. According to his teacher, it sounded like canons were going off, children were screaming and he heard it all. SWAT teams escorted them out of their room at gunpoint while walking over the prinicipal, school phsychologist and gunman. They had blood on their shoes. They were told to close their eyes, but as any 7 year old boy would do, he opened his and saw things that no one should ever see. As the days have passed, it only gets worse and worse. Trust me, I know that we are the lucky ones. We have several very close friends who lost their babies that day and they will never be the same. The story as Matty tells it is that they heard loud banging so his teacher turned off their lights and directed them to their cubbies (small locker type places for jackets and back packs) which went down the center of the classroom and faced away from the door for safety. After they sat in the cubbies, Matty went on to say that Mrs. Wexler (his teacher) lined up chairs in front of them and then laid across the chairs and sang to them. She would have taken a bullet for my son, how do you thank someone for that? We are struggling with the motive because if it was truly random, my son being alive today came down to this maniac going left into a classroom instead of right which would have been Matty's classroom, Again, from Sandy Hook, THANK YOU ALL. We truly feel your prayers!!!
Praying for your family. If there is anything we can do, let us know.
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  #135  
Old December 27th, 2012, 01:30 PM
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  #136  
Old December 27th, 2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cthoekenga View Post
From Sandy Hook, thanks to all of your thoughts, prayers and well wishes. Two of my sons, Matty - age 7 and CJ - age 9 were in the school that day. CJ was hid in a closet by his music teacher while they prayed together and he is doing OK. Matty was directly across the hall from the two classrooms that were involved. He is a mess. According to his teacher, it sounded like canons were going off, children were screaming and he heard it all. SWAT teams escorted them out of their room at gunpoint while walking over the prinicipal, school phsychologist and gunman. They had blood on their shoes. They were told to close their eyes, but as any 7 year old boy would do, he opened his and saw things that no one should ever see. As the days have passed, it only gets worse and worse. Trust me, I know that we are the lucky ones. We have several very close friends who lost their babies that day and they will never be the same. The story as Matty tells it is that they heard loud banging so his teacher turned off their lights and directed them to their cubbies (small locker type places for jackets and back packs) which went down the center of the classroom and faced away from the door for safety. After they sat in the cubbies, Matty went on to say that Mrs. Wexler (his teacher) lined up chairs in front of them and then laid across the chairs and sang to them. She would have taken a bullet for my son, how do you thank someone for that? We are struggling with the motive because if it was truly random, my son being alive today came down to this maniac going left into a classroom instead of right which would have been Matty's classroom, Again, from Sandy Hook, THANK YOU ALL. We truly feel your prayers!!!
I'm without words. As mentioned if you need anything, you have a lot of local support.
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  #137  
Old December 27th, 2012, 01:52 PM
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That seriously choked me up - really powerful, Craig. It is truly amazing what those teachers all did - and I'm sure would do again if they could - for those children.
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  #138  
Old December 27th, 2012, 01:59 PM
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Thank you for sharing that...
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  #139  
Old December 27th, 2012, 02:22 PM
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Wow, Craig, my prayers to you and your family.
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  #140  
Old December 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
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Man, I have tears rolling down my face.

I wish for you and the others that the same power who helped those little babies survive , will help you others overcome what it is laying ahead.
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