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  #101  
Old December 15th, 2012, 12:04 AM
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I understand that the weapons were a Glock 9mm and a Sig Sauer, and a M16 in the car. All of these were legally purchased and ostensibly owned by his now-dead mother.
These are not cheap street pieces obtained by a criminal, but high quality firearms an enthusiast would own.
If this person had mental illness, and they knew, as alluded to by the brother, how on earth did he get hold of them? That's the real crazy part I don't understand.
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  #102  
Old December 15th, 2012, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
I understand that the weapons were a Glock 9mm and a Sig Sauer, and a M16 in the car. All of these were legally purchased and ostensibly owned by his now-dead mother.
These are not cheap street pieces obtained by a criminal, but high quality firearms an enthusiast would own.
If this person had mental illness, and they knew, as alluded to by the brother, how on earth did he get hold of them? That's the real crazy part I don't understand.
If owned by the mother, there is your answer. Perhaps she bought them for him so he was "happy"? At the very least they were not properly secured in the home. How many people know a mom that actually owns/uses or is an enthusiast that owns those type of firearms?
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  #103  
Old December 15th, 2012, 07:10 AM
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I think you make a good point. The choice of guns by the mother and the proficiency of the shooter with the weapons makes it possible that there was proxy purchasing of those firearms for the son.
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  #104  
Old December 15th, 2012, 07:53 AM
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These people are not cowards. It takes a big set of balls to pull something like this off. Plain and simple, these guys are INSANE. And that is the issue, not guns, the 2nd amendment, or anything else.
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  #105  
Old December 15th, 2012, 08:17 AM
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Focusing on guns isn't going to solve the root problem, but instead will serve as a distraction to arriving at the true cause for mass violence in our society today. Guns are the easy target, but I'll venture that the reason lies a lot closer to Mike Huckabee's views than the gun control lobby.
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  #106  
Old December 15th, 2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Shep29 View Post
These people are not cowards. It takes a big set of balls to pull something like this off.
Big balls (with a healthy dose of insanity) would be picking on people that have the ability to, and will, "kill you back" without thinking twice. I am thinking Mexican drug cartels probably fall into that category. Not defenseless children - that is cowardice.

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Plain and simple, these guys are INSANE. And that is the issue, not guns, the 2nd amendment, or anything else.
Yes insanity is the root of the problem.
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  #107  
Old December 15th, 2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by xplorUtah View Post
... How many people know a mom that actually owns/uses or is an enthusiast that owns those type of firearms?
I was going to stay out of this conversation but since there has already been thread drift I'll join in.

I am an advid gun guy and 100% pro gun.
I carry concealed when I choose.
I train and shoot a lot. A day/week does not go by that I am not doing something gun related.

I travel and compete in shooting competitions all over the US - mostly with pistols but some times with AR15s. At every event there are several mothers (and grandmothers) competing with their own firearms. Many of these ladies shoot better than most of the men.

Here's a training camp just for women http://babeswithbullets.com/ the head Instructor is a mother.

Locally (MA) at my Shooting Club I know at least 1/2 dozen mothers/grandmothers that compete in USPSA and IDPA shooting events and there are dozens more that shoot recreationally.

Taking guns out of circulation is not the answer.
Taking evil and insane people out is.
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  #108  
Old December 15th, 2012, 09:46 AM
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I will say the same thing I said last week with the OR shooting. I bet both come out that these guys where both insane and the family probably tried to get them in a hospital but couldn't get it done. WHY a parent would have these guns in their house when they know their kid is deeply disturbed is just unbelievable, and if he somehow bought them using her name then that is another problem all together.

We need better parents, better pysch 5150(when you threaten to kill peolpe you lose your rights)....and some small changes to increase scrutiny on who is buying the guns and what can be bought.

I used to have a CC permit and I live in Philadelphia. I let it expire years ago. I honestly don't understand what the hell everyone is afraid of and why they need to have an arsenal of automatic weapons, extended clips, carry a gun 24hrs a day...ect. I never feel threatened and with my job I probably should. I have a gun at work and a gun at home. Honestly, I would probably do the smart thing and just give up my shit and call Allstate if I was being robbed.

I know I guy who owned a business in Phila who was held up at gun point. Instead of just giving up inventory, he pulled a gun on the assholes and took one to the head.. and never woke up. Other people in the store were shot as a result as well. He was an old timer with a CC. He should have just laid down and called the insurance Co. after. Very sad.

Having everyone armed isn't the answer, unless everyone is a trained professional sharp shooter. Otherwise for the few times it may have helped over the years it would go bad many many more times.

I had to go through more trouble adopting my 4yr old golden retriever who can't get out of his own way then it takes to buy a gun. Say what you want but that is just not right.

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  #109  
Old December 15th, 2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xplorUtah View Post
If owned by the mother, there is your answer. Perhaps she bought them for him so he was "happy"? At the very least they were not properly secured in the home. How many people know a mom that actually owns/uses or is an enthusiast that owns those type of firearms?
My wife for one. She has a Sig P239 and a S&W M&P15 M-4.
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  #110  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Campbell View Post
I will say the same thing I said last week with the OR shooting. I bet both come out that these guys where both insane and the family probably tried to get them in a hospital but couldn't get it done. WHY a parent would have these guns in their house when they know their kid is deeply disturbed is just unbelievable, and if he somehow bought them using her name then that is another problem all together.

We need better parents, better pysch 5150(when you threaten to kill peolpe you lose your rights)....and some small changes to increase scrutiny on who is buying the guns and what can be bought.
.
To me anyway the mental health issue is the real problem. Guns are just the easiest thing for people to rationalize. "Gun caused the harm, therefore guns are the problem" incorrect!
what about the story earlier about the deranged father throwing the infant out the window?

Even well educated leaders would have a hard time trying to explain the gaps in the mental health system. You think the regular health care system is broken? Try taking a look at the mental/behavioral health system (which includes substance/alcohol abuse BTW). Solve the mental health system and you'll solve most of the homelessness and violence in one swoop.
I can definitely say that I don't have the answers.
We don't have sci-fi technology like in Minority Report, so how can we know what an individual is capable of?

I can tell you that right now as I write this, there is a guy living in the apartment upstairs from my office who I believe is a paranoid schizophrenic (he called the police to check his apartments for surveillance devices and later he claimed that the landlord had secretly electrified his bed). I had a long talk with the police who believe he needs to be hospitalized, but until he creates a direct threat or does something that warrants a restraining order, there is nothing they can do. This guy is a news story waiting to happen. There are no registered guns at his residence, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any illegal weapons. I mean, shit, he could have a Samuri sword in there and he could decide that I'm tapping his thoughts, walk downstairs and cut my head off. Who fucking knows. I do know that if I still had my CC permit I'd have a Glock in my desk drawer for sure! I don't feel any immediate threat, but you never know. The point is that crazies will always be crazy and if I can't get a gun to protect myself, what then?

So until we figure out how to preemptively weed out psychos and deranged lunatics, all the efforts focused on gun control should be redirected at solving the gaps in the mental health system.

Jus-Sayin
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  #111  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Shep29 View Post
These people are not cowards. It takes a big set of balls to pull something like this off. Plain and simple, these guys are INSANE. And that is the issue, not guns, the 2nd amendment, or anything else.
It's absolutely cowardice. If you want to man up then join the military (if the person could), or if you have to go out big-attack a police station and see how that works put for you.

An elementary school is disgusting cowardice and the perp isn't worthy of being called a human.
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  #112  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:22 AM
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There is a link going round to some psychology guy in the UK who is suggesting that the sensationalist media reporting around the individuals perpetrating the crime contributes to others looking to replicate the infamy.

The suggestion is ... Don't name the perp, focus on the victims and lunatics will be less attracted to replicate the crime.

This makes a lot of sense to me and appears to address the root cause without impacting the general public adversely.
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  #113  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
There is a link going round to some psychology guy in the UK who is suggesting that the sensationalist media reporting around the individuals perpetrating the crime contributes to others looking to replicate the infamy.

The suggestion is ... Don't name the perp, focus on the victims and lunatics will be less attracted to replicate the crime.

This makes a lot of sense to me and appears to address the root cause without impacting the general public adversely.
The problem with that is the root cause is not being addressed: Mental Illness coupled with pure Evil/Insanity. Instead people are focused on the tool he used to carry out the act.
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  #114  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
There is a link going round to some psychology guy in the UK who is suggesting that the sensationalist media reporting around the individuals perpetrating the crime contributes to others looking to replicate the infamy.

The suggestion is ... Don't name the perp, focus on the victims and lunatics will be less attracted to replicate the crime.

This makes a lot of sense to me and appears to address the root cause without impacting the general public adversely.
That is a good point..... additionally these 1st person shooter games these young kids spend endless hours playing should be seriously restricted along with their real life violent graphics. The violent nature of these games must desensitize young minds to violence.
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  #115  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:38 AM
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I have to say that of all my experiences in Iraq, and all I could have experienced, none of it would compare to what those first responders had to witness going in that school. The thought of all those slaughtered and dying children in mass in the hallways and classrooms will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They need to be in our prayers as well. I don't know if I could hold it together overnight to process that crime scene.

There's a special place in hell for people that do things like this.
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  #116  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Shep29 View Post
The problem with that is the root cause is not being addressed: Mental Illness coupled with pure Evil/Insanity. Instead people are focused on the tool he used to carry out the act.
The problem addressing the mental illness aspect is that many of these crimes are perpetrated by young individuals that have never been institutionalized and most likely never been flagged as having issues.

The mental illness sector is so overwhelmed and so grossly underfunded that leaves professionals doing bare minimum. I regularly deal with EDPs (emotionally disturbed people) and we do do involuntary removals under NYS mental health law.... its tough to meet guidelines and then have institutions follow up on their end. Many times I see the person released within hours and not held even for the norm 72 hours pending eval. But again, a lot of these violent killing sprees are young white males from middle class neighborhoods that have no prior history other than being 'odd' or 'withdrawn'. SO how do we flag them as parents, teachers, civil servants? Parents are many times in denial that their child needs psych eval or care.

------ Follow up post added December 15th, 2012 10:46 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
I have to say that of all my experiences in Iraq, and all I could have experienced, none of it would compare to what those first responders had to witness going in that school. The thought of all those slaughtered and dying children in mass in the hallways and classrooms will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They need to be in our prayers as well. I don't know if I could hold it together overnight to process that crime scene.

There's a special place in hell for people that do things like this.

its beyond words to have to witness that scene. No one should ever have to.
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  #117  
Old December 15th, 2012, 10:54 AM
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I have to say that of all my experiences in Iraq, and all I could have experienced, none of it would compare to what those first responders had to witness going in that school. The thought of all those slaughtered and dying children in mass in the hallways and classrooms will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They need to be in our prayers as well. I don't know if I could hold it together overnight to process that crime scene.

There's a special place in hell for people that do things like this.
^That's the truth.
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  #118  
Old December 15th, 2012, 11:01 AM
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The problem addressing the mental illness aspect is that many of these crimes are perpetrated by young individuals that have never been institutionalized and most likely never been flagged as having issues.

The mental illness sector is so overwhelmed and so grossly underfunded that leaves professionals doing bare minimum. I regularly deal with EDPs (emotionally disturbed people) and we do do involuntary removals under NYS mental health law.... its tough to meet guidelines and then have institutions follow up on their end. Many times I see the person released within hours and not held even for the norm 72 hours pending eval. But again, a lot of these violent killing sprees are young white males from middle class neighborhoods that have no prior history other than being 'odd' or 'withdrawn'. SO how do we flag them as parents, teachers, civil servants? Parents are many times in denial that their child needs psych eval or care.
Completely agree that addressing the mental illness issue is very difficult but not talking about this perps mental illness is the wrong way to go about it. Will it inspire copy cats to do the same or has some video game already done that? People are focusing on the easy target: guns. Nobody wants to touch the hard part.
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  #119  
Old December 15th, 2012, 11:25 AM
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I saw this today and was appalled. My thoughts and prayers go out to those families affected by this senseless violence.



Agreed.
People who commit these kinds of atrocities are cowards - plain and simple.
If guns are out of the equation then they will get into a car and drive it into groups of people. Or start a fire in a building. Lots of things can all be deadly weapons, it is the intent that turns them into that. Otherwise they are what puts meat on the table, gets us to work, or keeps us warm when camping. Take away guns and they will find something else if they have intent. And they will always target those that cannot defend themselves.

Perhaps it is the desensitization of society. How much is a digital human life worth in a video game? And designers strive to make them more and more realistic. How many people play video games where it is first person shooter. Now how many have jumped in and "gone out in a blaze of glory"? Is it the insane that confuse fantasy with reality...or does every video gamer do that? No, some can handle it and understand the difference.

Cowards and mentally imbalanced cannot differentiate.

My .02

BTW I am prior Law Enforcement, Military, and I have a CCW. Have not carried in a few years. Tomorrow I am going to practice skills learned long ago and, yes, I will begin carrying again.
Video games today are sickening and there is loads of violence on tv. Just look at how many crime shows on tv now that display graphic violence. That said, it is the weak minded people who cannot differentiate between fiction and reality.
Children today have to grow up too fast, it's truly sad.
My heart goes out to these families.
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  #120  
Old December 15th, 2012, 11:35 AM
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These kinds of things only started happening in the 90's with Columbine. Guns have been around forever, so that is not the reason. In fact, my father used to give his .22 to the bus drivers so he could go hunting after school in the corn fields outside Chicago.

So, is it the demise of the family structure, the endless hormones injected into our food or violence in movies, video games or the sensationalism of the media?

Or could it be all the prescription drugs the kids are on? A few years back, teachers were pushing parents to get their kids on riddelin and other types of attention disorder drugs. When my son's boy scout troop goes on a camping trip 30% of the kids bring a bag full of prescription drugs. And, at least 8 kids have autism, asbergers or similar symptoms. I don't think we actually know all the side effects of 12 years of drug used may cause.
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