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  #81  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:43 PM
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I feel really old saying this does anyone else remember when we all had guns, some mounted in the cab of the pickup on a rack sitting in the parking lot at school and everyone had a pocket knife on them at all times from grade school on and it was no big deal?

People sure have changed in that short period of time

Truly sad
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  #82  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
So sad to read about this. Those poor kids. Need some real talk on gun control or gun education. We really don't need guns in todays society. People have hobbies and I respect. People will always kill people but its the amount of deaths you can effect in such a short amount of time with a gun that makes it that scary. Knifes can kill people too but the amount dead would be so much less. Arming teachers could have maybe prevented something. But then who prevents the teacher from killing? We will just keep arming more and more with no resolve.

Just look at the top 12 countries on this list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
Ohh c'mon Dan, do you really believe those stats

Chile 6, in their dreams, they forgot to add that Pinochet killed 20,000 that did not agree with him.

Want to talk Argentina? 40,000 missing souls that did not agree with the Government

Poland? maybe we should visit Yad Vashem , perhaps if they had guns it would have not happened

And we could continue....

------ Follow up post added December 14th, 2012 06:51 PM ------

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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
This is my view ... I have no expectation that anyone will agree ...

You make the assumption that idiots and criminals will always have guns ... but what if only a small percentage of them had guns at some point in the future.

I agree it's exceedingly difficult and probably requires a decades long approach ... the issue was 220 years in the making so if it took 20, 30 or 50 years to solve ...then so be it.

To effect change like this you need to have people voluntarily want to reject gun ownership ... clearly this is a tough ask ... but times change and attitudes adjust over long periods.

In 50 years ... people won't smoke ... not because it's illegal but because the don't want the harm.

The problem is not what to do in the short term ... I think people are in general becoming more liberal in their thinking ( after all Romney didn't make it into the White house ..) ... but to embrace and sustain change over a long period.

I'll never convince you to reject guns ... but a changing society may convince your children to reject them voluntarily.

As society rejects guns ... less and less will be in circulation, they won't be imported, they'll be retired and melted down ... maybe in 50 years the Oregon shooter wouldn't know anyone who had a legal gun he could steal or today's shooter wouldn't had or known anyone with a gun at all.

Will it solve this 100% ... of course not ... but could it reduce incidents by 99% ... quite possible.

I'm sure you wont agree but at some point something needs to be done ... but without a rational and a agreement on the way forward this problem won't get better by itself ...

I think the gun control lobby does itself more harm by trying to solve a problem very quickly ...

I am not assuming, I am certain, even in your Mother Land they do
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  #83  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:00 PM
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Chris Rock once joked that guns should be free, give them to everyone, but bullets should cost $1,000 each.


Whatever traction the NRA and gun-rights activists gained, or were gaining was definately upset today and I'm waiting for Obama to use this unspeakable event as a platform for his own agenda. I say he will give it a few days out of respect, but you can be assured he will not use this to his advantage to strip away more rights. I'm not arguing for/against gun controls, but just saying that this is definately an inflection point in this country's history in terms of gun rights. Just like 9/11 was an inflection point on how we handle air travel security.

But back to Alexandra's point, there is a gun control thread (appropriately enough that just started yesterday), so lets argue over gun rights in that place.


I'm generally a stoic, emotionless person when I hear of horrible news events, but this one in particular shook me up a bit. I was walking through the hallway of my boys' elementary school yesterday and cant' get the vision out of my head. Every elementary school from that era looks the same. You look at the images n the news and it looks like my kids' school. For those that don't have kids, try to imagine yourself in the safest, most comfortable place, then picture a massacre there. My kids love going to school. they love getting on the bus, they love their teacher, freinds, the routine and look at school like a place they trust. Walk down the halls of any elementary school and they the walls are plastered with innocent art, drawings that display the perceptions of the little ones and general happiness. None of that high school B.S. like fights, relationships etc has crept in yet, Elementary schools are about as innocent as a hospital nursery. Something about the violation of that sanctity somehow makes this even tougher.
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  #84  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:05 PM
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Yeah, I have a bunch of friends from newtown, I'm 2 towns over from this, all schools were on lockdown. This one really hit me because it's so close to my house, and it was children.
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  #85  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinckley423 View Post
I agree. Guns are too easy to get.
The easy guns to get are the kind that are not legal which laws won't do anything for, go apply to get a conceal carry permit and get a gun in NY, have fun waiting atleast 6 months, besides all the hoops you have to jump through living in westchester.
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  #86  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:15 PM
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As a new father of a now 20 month old and one on the way, I wept today for the parents of the children and the other families involved. I could not imagine losing my son. If arming teachers is the answer or providing them training and justly compensating them for the work that they do I am on board. If putting security guards on the premises then I am for that.
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  #87  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:19 PM
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The easy guns to get are the kind that are not legal which laws won't do anything for.
I just sold a legal pistol in a face to face transaction here in VA with no background check or paperwork. For all I knew the guy was crazy or a felon. But the law here makes it easy to buy and sell guns. I am all for the 2nd Amendment and own a lot of guns, but there does need to be some tightening of the laws. Granted, no amount of control will stop someone from legally buying a gun and going crazy with it.
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  #88  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CDeWan View Post
As a new father of a now 20 month old and one on the way, I wept today for the parents of the children and the other families involved. I could not imagine losing my son. If arming teachers is the answer or providing them training and justly compensating them for the work that they do I am on board. If putting security guards on the premises then I am for that.
But would you consider taking guns out of circulation?
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  #89  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDeWan View Post
As a new father of a now 20 month old and one on the way, I wept today for the parents of the children and the other families involved. I could not imagine losing my son. If arming teachers is the answer or providing them training and justly compensating them for the work that they do I am on board. If putting security guards on the premises then I am for that.
They let airline pilots carry pistols, but my wife cannot have a bottle of pepper spray at work.
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  #90  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
It is about the individual right, not the collective well-being. I won't trot out the studies because they are easy to find, but people with carry permits commit less crimes per captia than police officers. If that is a scary society, then you must be petrified of the police.
I'm petrified of people in general. But yes, I am very afraid that some people legally carry and enforce penal code, but with good reason.

I'm sure those who go through the loops to get a carry are very unlikely to commit a crime, but the argument can be made that those weapons can be obtain by others. Sure its their responsibility to secure them well, but as seen in Oregon, it was not always the case.
Though I tend to lean towards gun ownership, I do believe a society free of guns is probably a safer society. But I know that will never happen. Why is it that we feel that guns are what makes us safer? its a false sense of security.
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  #91  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
But would you consider taking guns out of circulation?
I would be open to that if it was a guaranteed cure, if not but for two things. First, the founding fathers put in the 2nd ammendment to prevent the government from ever having too much unchecked control. It enables the ability for the population to rebel if the government stops representing the people's interest, and also enables the right of a person to defend their family and property. 2nd, in this modern society, if someone wants to conduct a mascal (mass casualty event), there are many choices beyond firearms. take away guns, and you get guys like this knucklehead that hits the web, rents a truck, buys some fertilizer and diesel, drives into the school and blows the whole thing up.

Gun control will be as effective at fixing this problem as raising taxes alone will be on the deficit. We need a comprehensive approach.
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  #92  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:44 PM
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But would you consider taking guns out of circulation?
No, I don't believe that is the answer.

I would be all for taking evil out of the equation, but that is a cosmic issue.
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  #93  
Old December 14th, 2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
I just sold a legal pistol in a face to face transaction here in VA with no background check or paperwork. For all I knew the guy was crazy or a felon. But the law here makes it easy to buy and sell guns. I am all for the 2nd Amendment and own a lot of guns, but there does need to be some tightening of the laws. Granted, no amount of control will stop someone from legally buying a gun and going crazy with it.

Thats the way were suppost to be able to buy guns, relatively without too much hassle, just like a pick up truck or knife or whatever it is we use daily that can kill people. Don't get fooled into the left theology. Owning guns is a civil right, remember that.
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  #94  
Old December 14th, 2012, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Overlander View Post

I would be open to that if it was a guaranteed cure, if not but for two things. First, the founding fathers put in the 2nd ammendment to prevent the government from ever having too much unchecked control. It enables the ability for the population to rebel if the government stops representing the people's interest, and also enables the right of a person to defend their family and property. 2nd, in this modern society, if someone wants to conduct a mascal (mass casualty event), there are many choices beyond firearms. take away guns, and you get guys like this knucklehead that hits the web, rents a truck, buys some fertilizer and diesel, drives into the school and blows the whole thing up.

Gun control will be as effective at fixing this problem as raising taxes alone will be on the deficit. We need a comprehensive approach.
My understand ing is that the constitution can be changed to reflect the will of the people ... It's not cast in stone. The 21st replaced the 18th I learned yesterday.

Respect to you saying you'd even consider it ... Nothing is ever a 100% cure. We do need a comprehensive approach. The first step is to enter into a dialog without precondition. Alas I fear this is where hundreds more events like today will have to occur before that happens.

The level of effort to grab a gun and shoot people appears to be much lower than comparatively deadly means.
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  #95  
Old December 14th, 2012, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
I just sold a legal pistol in a face to face transaction here in VA with no background check or paperwork. For all I knew the guy was crazy or a felon. But the law here makes it easy to buy and sell guns. I am all for the 2nd Amendment and own a lot of guns, but there does need to be some tightening of the laws. Granted, no amount of control will stop someone from legally buying a gun and going crazy with it.
Unfortunately after the Fast and Furious Obama admin debacle, tightening things is somewhat laughable given the assinine actions/example our government has made @ the highest levels

------ Follow up post added December 14th, 2012 08:40 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_lucas View Post
I feel really old saying this does anyone else remember when we all had guns, some mounted in the cab of the pickup on a rack sitting in the parking lot at school and everyone had a pocket knife on them at all times from grade school on and it was no big deal?

People sure have changed in that short period of time

Truly sad
Dave I'm from that era as well. As a third grader you weren't cool if your dad hadn't given/entrusted you with a pocket knife., Swiss army knives ruled. The most trouble anyone got into was setting small fires with the little magnifying glass.

Every pickup truck in the 70's had a gun rack in the back window with 2 or 3 long guns. Truly a different world today.
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  #96  
Old December 14th, 2012, 09:30 PM
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I grieve for those lost. I too wept today upon hearing the news. However, I grieve deeper for our society today and the one our children will inherit. There is something fundamentally wrong, but pinpointing it and changing it is a monumental task.

Access to guns isn't the problem and gun control isn't the solution. The gun is only the means (one of many) to an end. We need to figure out the beginning. Until then, brace yourselves for a life of airport TSA-like security at virtually every public space.
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  #97  
Old December 14th, 2012, 10:58 PM
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I saw this today and was appalled. My thoughts and prayers go out to those families affected by this senseless violence.

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Originally Posted by geoellis View Post
Access to guns isn't the problem and gun control isn't the solution. The gun is only the means (one of many) to an end. We need to figure out the beginning. Until then, brace yourselves for a life of airport TSA-like security at virtually every public space.
Agreed.
People who commit these kinds of atrocities are cowards - plain and simple.
If guns are out of the equation then they will get into a car and drive it into groups of people. Or start a fire in a building. Lots of things can all be deadly weapons, it is the intent that turns them into that. Otherwise they are what puts meat on the table, gets us to work, or keeps us warm when camping. Take away guns and they will find something else if they have intent. And they will always target those that cannot defend themselves.

Perhaps it is the desensitization of society. How much is a digital human life worth in a video game? And designers strive to make them more and more realistic. How many people play video games where it is first person shooter. Now how many have jumped in and "gone out in a blaze of glory"? Is it the insane that confuse fantasy with reality...or does every video gamer do that? No, some can handle it and understand the difference.

Cowards and mentally imbalanced cannot differentiate.

My .02

BTW I am prior Law Enforcement, Military, and I have a CCW. Have not carried in a few years. Tomorrow I am going to practice skills learned long ago and, yes, I will begin carrying again.
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  #98  
Old December 14th, 2012, 11:40 PM
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MY GF just read my post. And she just said that she saw the quote somewhere - "if guns kill people then spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat". Too true...and exactly my point.
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  #99  
Old December 14th, 2012, 11:58 PM
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So the question is: with four major incidents of mass-casualty gun violence in public places this year in the US, and counting, is this really a price worth paying to hang on to the cherished 2nd amendment, gun-as-a-civil-right, noble tradition?

After a day like today, I myself cannot grasp how the answer to this could still be "yes".

Whether this is really going to be an inflection point will I guess depend on how many ordinary people out there decide that enough is enough and say: "no", this society cannot go on paying this terrible price for a tradition/right/whatever that few other places on Earth (except maybe Israel) seem to feel the need to have.
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  #100  
Old December 14th, 2012, 11:59 PM
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Ohh c'mon Dan, do you really believe those stats

Chile 6, in their dreams, they forgot to add that Pinochet killed 20,000 that did not agree with him.

Want to talk Argentina? 40,000 missing souls that did not agree with the Government

Poland? maybe we should visit Yad Vashem , perhaps if they had guns it would have not happened
List of countries by firearm-related death rate

This is a historical list of countries by firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year.

Also I love how the media brings up we need god in their lives again. Mike Huckabee was on Fox News saying how they need Christianity back into schools... Sadly he hasn't heard that religion is blamed for most murders throughout history.

Gus there is no solve here, I agree. But ever stat I have looked up shows the US in the top 5 to 10 depending on poll of most murders by guns each year. Maybe we just have a bunch of insane people here? Maybe it's all the sugar we ingest on a daily basis. Maybe it's our TV programs? Maybe it's out lack of mandatory military service? Nobody know. It's just a sad event and we shouldn't be worrying if our guns are being taken away (not directed at you Gus, I still love you man)

btw that guy in queens was texting me about fixing his truck. I need to get out and see that winch and bumper! Been busy.
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