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  #61  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
Jason,

tell me how you could possibly achieve such task? Are you considering a potential Revolution?

Are you willing to be the person to be blamed / suit if someone breaks into my house and I have had to surrender my firearms, hence not being able to protect them?

Furthermore, idiots and criminals, will always get guns, here or anywhere else.

No one has the right to tell me my life is worth the equivalent of someone's agenda.

We all have opinions, we have covered it in other threads, but every time I hear a candidate, Governor, senator or whatever, addressing Gun Control always fail to address what it will be done , how, and what measure will be in place to avoid this atrocities, because I am certain, the only firearms are going to ask for are those Registered Owned by Law abiding Citizens.

And lets not forget your rights end where mine begin ( you have the right to willingly be a potential victim, I do not care, so please let me be able to kill the mofo that tries to victimize me )
This is my view ... I have no expectation that anyone will agree ...

You make the assumption that idiots and criminals will always have guns ... but what if only a small percentage of them had guns at some point in the future.

I agree it's exceedingly difficult and probably requires a decades long approach ... the issue was 220 years in the making so if it took 20, 30 or 50 years to solve ...then so be it.

To effect change like this you need to have people voluntarily want to reject gun ownership ... clearly this is a tough ask ... but times change and attitudes adjust over long periods.

In 50 years ... people won't smoke ... not because it's illegal but because the don't want the harm.

The problem is not what to do in the short term ... I think people are in general becoming more liberal in their thinking ( after all Romney didn't make it into the White house ..) ... but to embrace and sustain change over a long period.

I'll never convince you to reject guns ... but a changing society may convince your children to reject them voluntarily.

As society rejects guns ... less and less will be in circulation, they won't be imported, they'll be retired and melted down ... maybe in 50 years the Oregon shooter wouldn't know anyone who had a legal gun he could steal or today's shooter wouldn't had or known anyone with a gun at all.

Will it solve this 100% ... of course not ... but could it reduce incidents by 99% ... quite possible.

I'm sure you wont agree but at some point something needs to be done ... but without a rational and a agreement on the way forward this problem won't get better by itself ...

I think the gun control lobby does itself more harm by trying to solve a problem very quickly ...
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  #62  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:54 PM
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What a tragedy. I just picked my daughter up from pre-school and was so happy and thankful to see her little smiling little face. I can't imagine what the parents of the victims are going through right now. As a father of two, it is incomprehensible.

I'm not sure about arming teachers but what I would like to see are schools becoming more like fortresses with armed cops. Unfortunately my daughters pre-school doesn't have security, maybe because it's in a church. I have already fired off an email to the school Director.
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  #63  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:00 PM
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Very sad. I don't think there is an answer.
In NZ you didn't have shootings. You had stabbings and lots of them or beatings that resulted in deaths. True you didn't get mass stabbings. But what's to say you take away guns and they start using bombs. Evil will always find a way.
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  #64  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:01 PM
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For every 100 people sitting in a circle around a campfire singing "kumbaya my lord", there will be 1 guy sitting in a tree with a rifle hell bent on taking them out. This is what society has always been and will always be. In other news, some ahole in China knifed like 20+ children today according to yahoo.
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  #65  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
...some poorly trained teachers turning a single shooter event into a huge crossfire collateral damage event. I would like to see teachers armed along with school armed security in the common areas like the lunch room and such, and the response is for teachers to collect and barracade their classrooms as a safe zone...I think the classroom doors need to be replaced just as we had the airlines replace the cockpit doors. Schools at a minimum need to have safe zones...
Classroom doors are solid oak and about 2" thick. Not invincible but enough to serve as an impediment. The lockdown and shelter in place means get in your rooms, lock the door, cover all windows, get out of sight lines. School shootings are shootings of opportunity. If you make it difficult, you slow them down immensely. The rooms are safe rooms and as safe as you can get in a situation like a school. As for a school based solution, lock down, shelter, let the SROs do their job.
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  #66  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:19 PM
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Well I'm sure this is going to finally make this issue a real national dialogue. Little children put the x factor into something that has gone on too long without really being addressed.

I'm for some increase in gun controls, even though I'm a Republican and NRA member. The real problem is, unless you do away with the 2nd ammendment, background checks and such aren't going to stop these guys. it always seems like these mass killings are by men with no criminal history or anything other indicators that would be able to trigger a flag on a city, state or national level. Even their family and neighbors seem to always say that it was a surprise, there wasn't anything out of the ordinary.
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  #67  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpigapicha View Post
where does it end? if it happens in library, arm librarians. School, arm teachers. Walmart, arm salespeople. IDK don't buy it.... reactive.
The point is that it doesn't end. Everyone has a right to carry to protect themself everywhere.
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  #68  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
For every 100 people sitting in a circle around a campfire singing "kumbaya my lord", there will be 1 guy sitting in a tree with a rifle hell bent on taking them out. This is what society has always been and will always be. In other news, some ahole in China knifed like 20+ children today according to yahoo.
So you're saying all we need to do is chop down all of the trees and give the children in China guns to protect themselves from the crazy knife wielders.
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  #69  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
This is my view ... I have no expectation that anyone will agree ...

You make the assumption that idiots and criminals will always have guns ... but what if only a small percentage of them had guns at some point in the future.

I agree it's exceedingly difficult and probably requires a decades long approach ... the issue was 220 years in the making so if it took 20, 30 or 50 years to solve ...then so be it.

To effect change like this you need to have people voluntarily want to reject gun ownership ... clearly this is a tough ask ... but times change and attitudes adjust over long periods.

In 50 years ... people won't smoke ... not because it's illegal but because the don't want the harm.

The problem is not what to do in the short term ... I think people are in general becoming more liberal in their thinking ( after all Romney didn't make it into the White house ..) ... but to embrace and sustain change over a long period.

I'll never convince you to reject guns ... but a changing society may convince your children to reject them voluntarily.

As society rejects guns ... less and less will be in circulation, they won't be imported, they'll be retired and melted down ... maybe in 50 years the Oregon shooter wouldn't know anyone who had a legal gun he could steal or today's shooter wouldn't had or known anyone with a gun at all.

Will it solve this 100% ... of course not ... but could it reduce incidents by 99% ... quite possible.

I'm sure you wont agree but at some point something needs to be done ... but without a rational and a agreement on the way forward this problem won't get better by itself ...

I think the gun control lobby does itself more harm by trying to solve a problem very quickly ...
This is 100% right on, and Bloomberg is right on this too. May this unspeakable tragedy indeed spark a true moment of change in this society. As a father of two including a kindergartener, I want to live in societies where there are very very few guns because that how the norms and values of that society work. It is not just a society awash with guns leading to chronic gun violence on appalling levels. It is guns being such a routine part of everyday life that social values themselves get skewed towards seeing violence as a normal part of the human condition. Plenty of societies around the world show us that that is just not the case. The centrality of the gun culture in the US - whatever its origins and justifications - is not normal, or necessary, in my view. But changing social norms is the work of a generation or more, at all levels of society. :-(
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  #70  
Old December 14th, 2012, 04:49 PM
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So when you solve those mass shootings you do realize you are dooming these people to a horrible fate right?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1992381.html

http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Fre...167733085.html

http://www.kswo.com/Global/story.asp?S=7272451

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story...i_7lnrQeg.cspx

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story...i_7lnrQeg.cspx
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  #71  
Old December 14th, 2012, 05:05 PM
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I'm all for tough background checks, annual renewals of those background checks, and making sure people who screw up once NEVER get the chance to own a fire-arm. But I'm not for taking the right away from those who are upstanding law abiding citizens.

I have serious beef with my state NJ, where its basically impossible to get a carry permit unless you are in law enforcement or a armed security guard. There is no reason why i shouldn't be able to carry a firearm. Now, if I ever got in trouble and committed a crime, i would hope that privelage would be taken away right away.

Also - i think you will be seeing armed officers in ALL schools, and more strigent checkpoints.... but lets be honest. If I nut job wants to comitt a crime like this, he's going to one way or the other...

on another note... i dont even have kids yet, but I couldn't imagine what those parents are going through.... my heart goes out to them.
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  #72  
Old December 14th, 2012, 05:46 PM
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Absolutely. I never said it was perfect ...
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  #73  
Old December 14th, 2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
The point is that it doesn't end. Everyone has a right to carry to protect themself everywhere.
I don't think anyone argues that we all have a right to protect ourselves, the question is are more guns the answer. Are guns the ONLY way we can protect ourselves, really? I own guns, all for right of ownership but not sure if arming the public with carry permits is the answer.
There are many vets here, many I'm sure with combat experience and all I think agree that ROE in civilian world is very different and so is accountability. Gun ownership to protects ones domain is one thing, civilians carrying everyday 'just in case' is a scary society.....
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  #74  
Old December 14th, 2012, 05:49 PM
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Today is truly a tragedy. I couldn't wait until my kids got home, just to know they were safe.

The gun control debate is not something we are going to solve anytime soon. These types of events are happening all around the world. Murders and psychotics are everywhere.

Hell, even that 5000 year old mummy found, frozen in the Italian alps was found with an arrow in his back and a knife gripped in his hand.

I pray for the families and friends affected by today's killings.
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  #75  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:01 PM
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I am not a fan of adding additional red-tape, but I really think that legislation should be passed that mandates that health professionals have to input into the NCIS system if a person is not mentally fit.

It should also mandate that people of authority i.e. Police, Teachers, etc.. could have a person evaluated by a doctor. My wife teaches High School English (and is always appalled by mine) and tells me the horror stories about how she is unable to do anything because of the health and privacy laws that are on the books now.

This would not prevent people that have guns now from doing harm to innocents later, but could prevent a mentally defective person from acquiring them and then using them in an illegal way.

FWIW, I own a few evil black rifles and some pistols. I think that people should be able to protect themselves, but some people need protection from themselves.



On a completely different tone:

I thought it was funny that a CNN reporter stated that the gunman had a Bushwacker 223 rifle, a Glock, and a Sig Schnauzer pistol. You think that they could do a quick check on that before going on the air.
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  #76  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Broncoduecer View Post
But what's to say you take away guns and they start using bombs. Evil will always find a way.
I talked to a friend about this earlier. These aren't some punks knocking off a convenient store with a .22 These people are insane. Clearly they do not have any regard for their own lives so I don't think they'd see any problem with taking themselves out for their awful purposes
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  #77  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:05 PM
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Don't forget our senior citizens. Often they find themselves alone with nobody to protect themselves so a gun for them is an equalizer, especially against younger thugs who frequently target them for robbery due to them appearing to be easy targets. For me, I think we have plenty of gun laws on the books already. Last time I checked, it was still illegal to kill someone. Enforce the laws on the books, don't make new ones. And if you don't like the 2nd amendment, mabye we should make some changes to the 1st amendment as well. If you don't like our civil liberties and your frustrated our laws aren't going your way, you can always try china or russia for a chance.
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  #78  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:26 PM
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So sad to read about this. Those poor kids. Need some real talk on gun control or gun education. We really don't need guns in todays society. People have hobbies and I respect. People will always kill people but its the amount of deaths you can effect in such a short amount of time with a gun that makes it that scary. Knifes can kill people too but the amount dead would be so much less. Arming teachers could have maybe prevented something. But then who prevents the teacher from killing? We will just keep arming more and more with no resolve.

Just look at the top 12 countries on this list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
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  #79  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpigapicha View Post
I don't think anyone argues that we all have a right to protect ourselves, the question is are more guns the answer. Are guns the ONLY way we can protect ourselves, really? I own guns, all for right of ownership but not sure if arming the public with carry permits is the answer.
There are many vets here, many I'm sure with combat experience and all I think agree that ROE in civilian world is very different and so is accountability. Gun ownership to protects ones domain is one thing, civilians carrying everyday 'just in case' is a scary society.....
It is about the individual right, not the collective well-being. I won't trot out the studies because they are easy to find, but people with carry permits commit less crimes per captia than police officers. If that is a scary society, then you must be petrified of the police.
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  #80  
Old December 14th, 2012, 06:37 PM
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It will sum my opinions Gun Control ( as we know the anti propose all the times ) it is not the answer

How about we start with People Control ? Lets find a professional irrefutable way to avoid this situations, not by asking for my guns.

I have to tell you, I have a very very hard time to believe this asshole operated " NORMALLY " until the minute he entered the School and then he snapped.

I am a father and my kid will not rescind Gun ownership, he handles them and respect them as he should, neither will his kids , because we follow the honorable legacy our parents instill upon us.
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