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  #41  
Old December 14th, 2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
Right because police officers, unlike teachers, are super human robots that never make mistakes and thus eliminates their risk of collateral damage. So according to you (a school shooting expert now because of your experience in the field of education) a few minutes is all thats needed for law enforcement to arrive to prevent any further loss of life after the initial shooting. Man your so right!! I like the way you think.. <sheep noises> btw, theres a D90 for sale here for like $15k. Anyone can finance that.
I prefer to pay cash for my toys. Im almost there but thats not the point...


Super human robots they are not but trained in marksmanship repeatedly and for stressful situations, yes. Yes they are. Can they make a mistake? Sure they can. Are they less likely to be jumpy? Probably. As for my expertise, I am merely relaying what my decade or so of teaching in a heavily populated HS setting has shown me. When it comes to a school shooting, they respond unbelievably quickly and will move in with a minimum of 'backup'. That has been my experience. The statement was armed teachers. I said no and laid out perfectly acceptable and legitimate reasons as for why that should not be the case. Read up on what shelter in place lockdown situations require in schools. I feel completely safe with my SRO in the building.

I never claimed to be an 'expert.' Only to give the viewpoint of a teacher to counter a non teacher view. Its my $0.02. Accept or reject as you will.




As for armed teachers in Israel...this isnt Israel. Thankfully, we do not live under the actual threat of daily violence.
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  #42  
Old December 14th, 2012, 02:56 PM
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There is a school system near here that when they finally integrated ('73 or '74!!!!), the superindentent ordered all teachers to keep a weapon in either their desk or briefcase.

It is a proven fact that there is less crime in an area where more law-abiding citizens are armed.

The ONLY time I do not have a weapon on my person is when I have to fly, went to San Diego last week, I was nervous as hell and never felt so helpless as I did for those 4 days......

If drastic gun control measures were to be passed here:

1. More criminals would have weapons than law-abiding citizens (opposite of the way it is now)
2. Those full auto AK's that are out on the world market for 75 bucks a pop would pour into the country. Tragedies such as the one that occured today would be a daily occurence.
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  #43  
Old December 14th, 2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
Right because police officers, unlike teachers, are super human robots that never make mistakes and thus eliminates their risk of collateral damage. So according to you (a school shooting expert now because of your experience in the field of education) a few minutes is all thats needed for law enforcement to arrive to prevent any further loss of life after the initial shooting. Man your so right!! I like the way you think.. <sheep noises> btw, theres a D90 for sale here for like $15k. Anyone can finance that.
I'm curious, how old are you? If your older than 16 I'd be surprised.
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  #44  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:03 PM
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Its beyond tragic. Makes me want to go and get my kids from school.
Its actually not too far from me, been seeing helicopters heading back & forth and just heard 3 in critical condition at a local hospital 20 min away.
I don't know what the answer is, if there is even one when we live in an open tolerant society. Nothing can avoid this as long as people continue to plan a grand exit when their live has become hopeless.
Many years ago when I was working in a shitty neighborhood in the Bronx, a father soon to be divorced that had order of protection again'st him went back to house to retrieve some clothes. She made the mistake of letting him in to the bedroom where their 15 month old was sleeping. After few minutes she panicked went in but was too late. He tossed the infant 15 floors to street. I was one of first units arriving with 2 other sector cars. We contemplated the unthinkable for a brief moment. Let the father see what his infant just saw and would of been easy to say just killed himself. period. I would've slept like a baby that night.
Again, don;t know what the answer is. But can honestly say arming teachers is definitely not it. To throw more guns into the equation does not seem right to me.
As someone mentioned, hug your kids, cherish life.... violence does not discriminate.
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  #45  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:05 PM
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Thoughts and prayers for the families. It took years for airline safety to become effective, and now schools are soon to be just as intense (hope even more) when it comes to security. I will gladly be searched, metal detected and fingerprinted when going into a school if proves to be a true safe haven for our kids.
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  #46  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpigapicha View Post
Its beyond tragic. Makes me want to go and get my kids from school.
Its actually not too far from me, been seeing helicopters heading back & forth and just heard 3 in critical condition at a local hospital 20 min away.
I don't know what the answer is, if there is even one when we live in an open tolerant society. Nothing can avoid this as long as people continue to plan a grand exit when their live has become hopeless.
Many years ago when I was working in a shitty neighborhood in the Bronx, a father soon to be divorced that had order of protection again'st him went back to house to retrieve some clothes. She made the mistake of letting him in to the bedroom where their 15 month old was sleeping. After few minutes she panicked went in but was too late. He tossed the infant 15 floors to street. I was one of first units arriving with 2 other sector cars. We contemplated the unthinkable for a brief moment. Let the father see what his infant just saw and would of been easy to say just killed himself. period. I would've slept like a baby that night.
Again, don;t know what the answer is. But can honestly say arming teachers is definitely not it. To throw more guns into the equation does not seem right to me.
As someone mentioned, hug your kids, cherish life.... violence does not discriminate.

dude ... i've id seen half the shit you deal with i wouldn't be able to sleep ...ever.
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  #47  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
dude ... i've id seen half the shit you deal with i wouldn't be able to sleep ...ever.
you'd be surprised. We all have a little safe deep in our soul where we can lock things up really well.....
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  #48  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
I understand that you believe something and I respect your beliefs ... I'm asking you so consider a counterpoint that the elimination of freely available guns ( however distasteful to you personally ) is a potential solution rather than the continuous escalation of arming everyone as a deterrent.

I apologize for questioning your sanity.
Jason,

tell me how you could possibly achieve such task? Are you considering a potential Revolution?

Are you willing to be the person to be blamed / suit if someone breaks into my house and I have had to surrender my firearms, hence not being able to protect them?

Furthermore, idiots and criminals, will always get guns, here or anywhere else.

No one has the right to tell me my life is worth the equivalent of someone's agenda.

We all have opinions, we have covered it in other threads, but every time I hear a candidate, Governor, senator or whatever, addressing Gun Control always fail to address what it will be done , how, and what measure will be in place to avoid this atrocities, because I am certain, the only firearms are going to ask for are those Registered Owned by Law abiding Citizens.

And lets not forget your rights end where mine begin ( you have the right to willingly be a potential victim, I do not care, so please let me be able to kill the mofo that tries to victimize me )
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  #49  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:11 PM
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I have 2 small kids in school, and thinking about this, I would feel better if their teachers where armed, as long as there was a good deal of training involved. There is a LOT of decision making that needs to be involved in that training involving the law, escalation of force and threat assessment. My worry though is kids accidentally getting ahold of a teacher's weapon by accident, or some poorly trained teachers turning a single shooter event into a huge crossfire collateral damage event. I would like to see teachers armed along with school armed security in the common areas like the lunch room and such, and the response is for teachers to collect and barracade their classrooms as a safe zone, with the weapon as a final line of defense. although it would be an upfront expense the gov and private schools would have to pickup, I think the classroom doors need to be replaced just as we had the airlines replace the cockpit doors. Schools at a minimum need to have safe zones, as it seems to me that the majority of mass shooting over the last 10 years have primarily been at schools. We have to accept that fact immediately and make some changes. we're not going to disarm the country, and the 2nd ammendment is not going away, so it's the immedate response to a shooting and access to the school that we can control. It's over by the time the police get there, so it has to be a school based solution.
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  #50  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Folks: lets not turn this into a gun debate. Lets focus on the Children, Parents and Staff of the School.

They really need to know that we are here to help them.

Really, please tell me how you will do that ?
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  #51  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:22 PM
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where does it end? if it happens in library, arm librarians. School, arm teachers. Walmart, arm salespeople. IDK don't buy it.... reactive.
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  #52  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpigapicha View Post
Its beyond tragic. Makes me want to go and get my kids from school.
Its actually not too far from me, been seeing helicopters heading back & forth and just heard 3 in critical condition at a local hospital 20 min away.
I don't know what the answer is, if there is even one when we live in an open tolerant society. Nothing can avoid this as long as people continue to plan a grand exit when their live has become hopeless.
Many years ago when I was working in a shitty neighborhood in the Bronx, a father soon to be divorced that had order of protection again'st him went back to house to retrieve some clothes. She made the mistake of letting him in to the bedroom where their 15 month old was sleeping. After few minutes she panicked went in but was too late. He tossed the infant 15 floors to street. I was one of first units arriving with 2 other sector cars. We contemplated the unthinkable for a brief moment. Let the father see what his infant just saw and would of been easy to say just killed himself. period. I would've slept like a baby that night.
Again, don;t know what the answer is. But can honestly say arming teachers is definitely not it. To throw more guns into the equation does not seem right to me.
As someone mentioned, hug your kids, cherish life.... violence does not discriminate.
Not to sound like a jerk, but would you show up to work (lets just say that shitty neighborhood in the Bronx) without your sidearm all the while performing F stops or perhaps as part of a high risk entry team? Because what it sounds like to me is you think its ok for you to have gun (law enforcement) but for everyone else (untrained sheep) its definately not ok. Please forgive me if I'm incorrect.
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  #53  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:26 PM
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So....... I am not an expert but are general population type prison guards armed? Not apples to apples I understand but many feel our teachers should be armed??? Rediculous in my opinion. The reaction time of a proper support or back up system such as the armed and trained guards (as in prison) should more likley be the answer, but again just speaking common sense not real life experience.
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  #54  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:26 PM
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I'm curious, how old are you? If your older than 16 I'd be surprised.

Thanks, I was wondering when the personal insults would start

I'm 16 1/2!
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  #55  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:36 PM
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Just on a strictly psychological note, it seems to me that it isn't really an uncommon place for a human brain to be able to go. Last year a grandmother threw her baby granddaughter off the elevated walkway between the parking deck and Nordstrom's at Tyson's Corner Mall. Just mad at her son in law. Just about once a week there seems to be news of a car bomb in Afghanistan. killing tens or even hundreds at a single blow. There are seemingly unending throngs of humans willing to take out as many others as possible, often with themselves included. It's madness for sure, but after all these hundreds of thousands of years that Homo Sapiens has been around, we can't seem to recognize what the telltale signs are that someone has reached that level of psychosis.
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  #56  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpigapicha View Post
where does it end? if it happens in library, arm librarians. School, arm teachers. Walmart, arm salespeople. IDK don't buy it.... reactive.

Sad to say, here in Israel

Every McDonald's
Every mall
Every park
Etc

Any higher density location.

Sadly events like this are what change old perceptions and ideals.
9-11 changed flight security

If 5 suicide bombers walked into 5 different Wallmarts , say 5 small towns around the US,

I be willing to bet, You would buy it.

Thank goodness you don't have to.


Stay safe.
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  #57  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Just on a strictly psychological note, it seems to me that it isn't really an uncommon place for a human brain to be able to go. Last year a grandmother threw her baby granddaughter off the elevated walkway between the parking deck and Nordstrom's at Tyson's Corner Mall. Just mad at her son in law. Just about once a week there seems to be news of a car bomb in Afghanistan. killing tens or even hundreds at a single blow. There are seemingly unending throngs of humans willing to take out as many others as possible, often with themselves included. It's madness for sure, but after all these hundreds of thousands of years that Homo Sapiens has been around, we can't seem to recognize what the telltale signs are that someone has reached that level of psychosis.
I was on the same page, thinking about Syrian children who are slaughtered everyday, this is a shock because it happens so rarely, for that I am thankful
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  #58  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:40 PM
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Ive been following as well, what a tragedy. Apparently the shooters mother worked at the school.
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  #59  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
Not to sound like a jerk, but would you show up to work (lets just say that shitty neighborhood in the Bronx) without your sidearm all the while performing F stops or perhaps as part of a high risk entry team? Because what it sounds like to me is you think its ok for you to have gun (law enforcement) but for everyone else (untrained sheep) its definately not ok. Please forgive me if I'm incorrect.
Everyday bro. I'm a medic. I'm weapons trained from elsewhere but there have been times I wished I had a sidearm. I've wrestled for a gun with a perp, been in between shootouts, had a crazy partner that use to carry discharge in a shootout between cops & a drug gang. In the past 20, I've worked in NYC shittiest neighborhoods (currently Harlem & Washington Heights). I can keep going, so I do but years ago, wished many times that we carry.
In the end though, I've always been smart to get myself out of situations and usually avoided getting in them in the first place. I get the safe feeling a weapons gets us but don't think arming civi's is the answer..... it actually terrifies me. Some of these cops, incl NYC, scare me that they carry.... Lot of respect for all those in harms way but the training just isn't there and because of low pay, departments tend to attract low IQ & odd characters.... and thats professional depts that have psych evals, background checks, etc.... I'd be terrified if the distribution of weaponry expanded from there. As many of you probably know, something close to 97% of cops never discharge their weapons in the line of duty.
One last thing. I have a few partners that are NYPD ESU, one an A-Team member (ESU tact team that does no knock warrants all day) and neither rarely carry off duty.... fear that they may have to draw & discharge their weapon off duty and the scrutiny that will follow. Its a shitty time to be a cop in NYC. As one old partner that is a cop said, the only job that spends 6 months training you and 20 years trying to fire you.

------ Follow up post added December 14th, 2012 03:47 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yudda View Post
Sad to say...

Every McDonald's
Every mall
Every park
Etc

Any higher density location.

Sadly events like this are what change old perceptions and ideals.
9-11 changed flight security

If 5 suicide bombers walked into 5 different Wallmarts , say 5 small towns around the US,

I be willing to bet. You'd buy it.

Thank goodness you don't have to.


Stay safe.

Don;t shop in Walmart! =) just a little humor to break tension. Seriously, I don' think so. I was in WTC during 9/11, the day and thereafter. Did not change my perception. Its not realistic to arm the public..... may seem to make sense but really don;t think applies to real world. But I respect everyones opinions, hence the open, tolerant society we are.
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  #60  
Old December 14th, 2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rover4x4 View Post
Ive been following as well, what a tragedy. Apparently the shooters mother worked at the school.
It looks like she taught kindergarten. Apparently he targeted her class, a room full of 4 and 5 year old children.

I have a 4 year old and I can't imagine she would be able to understand enough of what is going on to even run away in the chaos.
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