clutchless shifting - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old January 21st, 2010, 08:56 PM
isleofman's Avatar
isleofman
Status: Offline
Lee Davis
'95 D90 "BeastLee"
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bellevue, Seattle
Posts: 183
clutchless shifting

My 17 year old son came home yesterday and told me he wants to master the art of clutchless shifting or floating as it is also called. Instantly I felt my insides crunch and grind. I know it can be done, that truck drivers do it, not to mention teen boys who do it for the "cool" factor (umm we're talking about shifting gears here!!) .
Due to his lack of driving experience and $$$ for any would be repairs, I told him NOT to do it. He reminded me the truck has non-synch gears and it's a skill he has to learn just in case!! . I reminded him that he's been driving solo for one week, the truck has a clutch for a reason, and that so far, he only owns the equivalent of a door, tire and the brake pedal on the truck. But of course I know nothing so I shifted into neutral and then shut off.
So here I am curious as to some of your thoughts on clutchless shifting. I need to brush up on my knowledge in order to be better prepared for the next round of verbal warfare....not that I plan on changing my mind of course. The truck in question is a 1965 Series IIA.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old January 21st, 2010, 09:12 PM
huck1974's Avatar
huck1974
Status: Offline
shane cates
94 d90
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: springfield mo
Posts: 890
Clutch master went out not too long ago. Had to do that to get home. Its not hard to do but kinda dumb. Its not a big rig. Not meant to do that. Tell him to buy his own damn car to grind the gears in.
RPM matching so that everything spins at the same speed.









Quote:
Originally Posted by isleofman View Post
My 17 year old son came home yesterday and told me he wants to master the art of clutchless shifting or floating as it is also called. Instantly I felt my insides crunch and grind. I know it can be done, that truck drivers do it, not to mention teen boys who do it for the "cool" factor (umm we're talking about shifting gears here!!) .
Due to his lack of driving experience and $$$ for any would be repairs, I told him NOT to do it. He reminded me the truck has non-synch gears and it's a skill he has to learn just in case!! . I reminded him that he's been driving solo for one week, the truck has a clutch for a reason, and that so far, he only owns the equivalent of a door, tire and the brake pedal on the truck. But of course I know nothing so I shifted into neutral and then shut off.
So here I am curious as to some of your thoughts on clutchless shifting. I need to brush up on my knowledge in order to be better prepared for the next round of verbal warfare....not that I plan on changing my mind of course. The truck in question is a 1965 Series IIA.
__________________
I love little baby ducks, old pick-up trucks, slow-moving trains, and rain
I love little country streams, sleep without dreams, sunday school in may,
And hay
And I love you too
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old January 21st, 2010, 10:28 PM
airbornrover's Avatar
airbornrover
Status: Offline
William Skidmore
SIII 109 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Land by parkway and 33
Posts: 1,882
Id tell your kid not to worry about. Thats what AAA and friends are for. As for shifting without the clutch, its a jee weezy kind of thing. Only done with muscle cars, high end cars, and really big trucks. Ive seen it done with finesse and brute.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old January 21st, 2010, 10:43 PM
huck1974's Avatar
huck1974
Status: Offline
shane cates
94 d90
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: springfield mo
Posts: 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by airbornrover View Post
Id tell your kid not to worry about. Thats what AAA and friends are for. As for shifting without the clutch, its a jee weezy kind of thing. Only done with muscle cars, high end cars, and really big trucks. Ive seen it done with finesse and brute.

I guess AAA and friends buy transmissions after grinding and forcing gears while practicing a useless art. Name a muscle car or high end car with a manual transmission that it would be a good idea to shift without the use of a clutch. I will seriously prematurely wear anything not designed to shift without the clutch. Thats why the thing has a clutch.
__________________
I love little baby ducks, old pick-up trucks, slow-moving trains, and rain
I love little country streams, sleep without dreams, sunday school in may,
And hay
And I love you too
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old January 21st, 2010, 11:59 PM
Buckon37s's Avatar
Buckon37s
Status: Offline
Buck
Re-Fendered 90
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Temecula, CA, USA
Posts: 3,376
Not to mention, its not faster if you know what your doing.

Tell him to learn how to drive on two wheels for long stretches. Thats cool. Nobody cares if you skip the clutch.
__________________
2009 King of the Hammers

BUCK Wild Racing
Driver: Me
Co-driver: Pat Quirk
Team 911

Rover Tracks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSC
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DJ Safety
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
West Coast Rovers
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reel Driveline
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 04:29 AM
globallandrovers's Avatar
globallandrovers
Status: Offline
Julian Kotting
1999 P38 DT, 1997 LHD 110 CSW
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hertford UK, Wilmington, NC, Austin, TX and OH
Posts: 1,522
Registry
Better to teach him to Double de clutch on those older rovers.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Land Rover Defender Specialist. - We ship worldwide.
We are a specialist in TDI re-power conversions, and Crate 'turn key' Land Rover TDI and TD5 engines and Transmissions.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 08:17 AM
Ren Ching's Avatar
Ren Ching
Status: Offline
Skinny Pete
'84 90 "Yamelo"/'88 RRC "Chewbacca"
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Downtown
Posts: 4,696
Registry
I do it sometimes when my clutch knee gets tired. More so on the series, not so much on my precious r380

Like Julian says, make sure the kid knows how to double clutch properly. Going up from 1st to 2nd isn't too hard.Shifting down from 3rd to 2nd or 2nd to 1st is not as easy.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:09 AM
GYM's Avatar
GYM
Status: Offline
Gary
97 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: West Coast
Posts: 1,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by airbornrover View Post
Only done with muscle cars...
??? No way. (Not on my 40 year old Mopar A-833 4 speed trannys, anyway.)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:32 AM
JimC's Avatar
JimC
Status: Offline
Jim Cheney
NAS 110 #145
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 7,154
Registry
Its a useful fact to know that you can change gears without the clutch when the revs are matched, and matching revs is a good skill for both performance driving and general driving skill, but what he wants to do is impress his buddies.

If he wants to do this kind of stuff, make him save up and go to a driving school down at SIR or something. Upgrading the driver is a money well spent, especially for young drivers.
__________________
Jim Cheney

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:32 AM
cgalpin's Avatar
cgalpin
Status: Offline
Charles Galpin
'94 D90 ST, '63 SeriesIIA
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 11,625
Registry
If the need ever arises he can learn then. Besides he'll have sufficient motivation and if he screws up the transmission at least he'll have it out :D
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:32 AM
JimC's Avatar
JimC
Status: Offline
Jim Cheney
NAS 110 #145
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 7,154
Registry
Not that they'll teach him how to shift without the clutch, but they'll show him what handling and control are all about.
__________________
Jim Cheney

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 10:50 AM
evilfij's Avatar
evilfij
Status: Offline
evilfij
I have never seen a rover in person
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: on the internet
Posts: 14,688
In my series I rarely use the clutch from 1st to 2nd (ok, I never drive the thing but when I do ....) as it is non-synchro. He should use the clutch from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th (3rd and 4th have synchros) and should always use the clutch and match revs on the downshift. If you have an SIII transmission or R380/LT77, you should always use the clutch.

Clutchless shifting teaches you to match revs so that you will not wear synchros when you shift with the clutch. It is all about feel and timing. You have to shift SLOW and wait for the revs to drop (rovers have heavy flywheels). For example, my "new" 1994 has a badly worn second synchro. I time it perfect and it never grinds at all because I know when and how fast to shift. If you shift too fast or too slow, it crunches.

Ron
__________________
*not legal advice*
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 11:06 AM
GYM's Avatar
GYM
Status: Offline
Gary
97 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: West Coast
Posts: 1,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC View Post
If he wants to do this kind of stuff, make him save up and go to a driving school down at SIR or something.
There's an acronym from the past! Jim, you've been away from home for too long.

Lee; JimC's suggestion is an excellent one, but unfortunately, Seattle International Raceway (SIR) is no more.
Several years ago the track management changed and if you want to look it up, it is now known as Pacific Raceways, (off Hwy 18 in Kent.)...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 12:10 PM
61rover's Avatar
61rover
Status: Offline
John Crouse
'93 NAS D110 (#8) / '61 Series II
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,116
Registry
I highly recommend signing him up for this: http://www.streetsurvival.org/

There are several sessions coming up in your area. We enrolled our son and he loved it. They teach all the stuff you never learn in drivers ed. It's partly sponsored by BMW, but there was every car imaginable there. One girl had an 80s Wagoneer. They put spacers on it to widen the footprint and ran her through the same stuff as the sports cars.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 12:50 PM
zimm's Avatar
zimm
Status: Offline
bart
anyone moves..... #238 sold
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: rock ridge
Posts: 294
buy an automatic, and tell him to go play with 1,2, and D.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 12:59 PM
Rugbier's Avatar
Rugbier
Status: Offline
Gustavo
110 Tdi - 110 N/A - D3 HSE - RRS SC
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Peoples Republic of Marylandistan
Posts: 5,884
Registry
I've been driving an M3 for the last couple of weeks ( while Shrek gets his tanning ) and call me OLD, LAZY, but I clutchless shift all the time after 2nd gear ( all the way to 6th and down to 2nd ).

In principle, no grinding if done properly. now dead start , better have a good battery and let it rip

Many moons ago, had a Countach and was easier to drive it with no clutch than the heavy pedal every gear
__________________
NO SIGNATURE
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 01:39 PM
landrovered's Avatar
landrovered
Status: Offline
S. Smith
72 Series III 109 Diesel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Under my truck!
Posts: 753
I learned to shift without a clutch in a Renault, it was a beater and I imagine we didn't do a lot of harm. Once I was driving our family on a trip in our then new Mazda 626. We stoped for lunch and the slave on the clutch took a dump. I drove the car and family the rest of the two hour trip home in the NC mountains with no clutch. Everyone was amazed that it could be done. Of course they were a little wierded out the first time I started it in gear.

It is a good skill to have.
__________________
72 Series III 109 SW Diesel, 03 RR, 98 Porsche 986, 01 Porsche 986 3.6 L
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 02:12 PM
isleofman's Avatar
isleofman
Status: Offline
Lee Davis
'95 D90 "BeastLee"
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bellevue, Seattle
Posts: 183
Thanks for all the feedback. He has been to Pacific Raceways before to watch a friend's Dad do the road course and was quite eager to try it for himself. Something worth checking into.
I've only seen clutchless shifting in person a couple of times. While my friend explained the technique, i honestly wasn't paying super close attention to engine and rev sounds or how fast/slow to move the stick. Is it possible to explain rev matching and stick shift speed over the internet? I'm guessing I might have to call my friend so we can go for a little drive...while the kid's at school....because for him the answer is still NO!!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 03:14 PM
evilfij's Avatar
evilfij
Status: Offline
evilfij
I have never seen a rover in person
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: on the internet
Posts: 14,688
When you go from first to second, you pull it out of first into neutral when you let off the gas and put it into 2nd at the exact point that that revs are where they would be based on the speed of the wheels.

So, for example, if at 20mph you would cruise at 3000rpm in first and 2200rpm in second, you would let off at 3000rpm, pull the lever to neutral and then slowly put it into second at say 2100rpm (to compensate for losing a bit of road speed on the shift).

It should be completely silent if you do it right, too fast or too slow it crunches. edit: actually, shift too slow it won't go in, too fast it crunches.

Ron
__________________
*not legal advice*
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old January 22nd, 2010, 03:20 PM
cgalpin's Avatar
cgalpin
Status: Offline
Charles Galpin
'94 D90 ST, '63 SeriesIIA
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 11,625
Registry
And likewise when you downshift, you let off the gas, pull it out of gear, tap the gas to get the revs up, and push into the gear when the revs match. Keys is to get the feel for the revs or you'll hear a lot of grinding. if I wasn't so busy today I'd run out for a drive and make a video of it. I googled and you can find some on you-tube, but none of them impressed me (and they were all little cars with easy to shift transmissions).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat

Tags
clutch

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
97 D-90 Auto Transmission Shifting at Higher RPM parkcity4x4classic Defender Technical Discussions 7 October 30th, 2006 05:35 PM
Problems shifting out of 1st when cold chalkcreek Defender Technical Discussions 2 July 14th, 2006 10:56 PM
94 shifting problems jstrong98 Defender Technical Discussions 6 January 26th, 2006 03:06 PM
ZF Transmission Hesitation Shifting 1of40 Defender Technical Discussions 1 July 26th, 2005 11:41 AM
Shuddering when shifting... mlw911 Defender Technical Discussions 1 August 26th, 2004 09:18 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:56 PM.


Copyright