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  #61  
Old June 24th, 2016, 05:24 PM
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Britain had/has no control over the number of EU citizens entering, they needed to limit numbers in the only way they could which was limiting non EU citizens. My wife and I were married 11 years when we decided to move back to the UK, she has USA/UK citizenship as do my daughters. I was refused a visa on my first application and had to stay behind while my wife and daughters embarked on the biggest change in our lives. It ended up costing £3K between applications and getting a lawyer. My Wife had to meet an income requirement for my application to be approved and had to be in a job for 6 months before I could apply again. From first application to finish it took a year and a half. Though in that time I was lucky enough to be granted a tourist visa for 6 months to at least see my family, then go back to the States and reapply, I was granted a residency visa on my second attempt.

There was no logic to this process, no regard to the "right to family life" because in the mind of the UK government they were not denying me that "right" because I could be together with them in America if I chose to. EU citizens wishing to come to the UK and live off the "system" can enter without question or without limit. Non EU citizens who are productive members of society and moving for much different reasons are challenged at the application process in hopes of limiting immigration in the only way they can while within the EU.

Immigration alone is why many people voted to get out of the EU. It's immigration stories like ours that don't make the headlines as much as economic migrants or EU citizens. However, though frustrated by my experience I am intelligent enough to know that migration/immigration issues are only one part (pro or con) of a much larger pie which makes up the EU. I had no right to vote in the referendum which is fine with me, I told people I am happy to just be a spectator in this issue. Should be interesting times regardless of how anyone voted.

I just might be stuck between Brexit or Donald Trump.
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  #62  
Old June 24th, 2016, 05:26 PM
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I'm not a citizen of the UK, but if I were, I'd be signing the petition in the link below:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The way I see it, at 52% to 48%, the UK was pretty well split. But, after witnessing the fallout, I suspect many voters in the UK weren't aware of the repercussions that would flow from their actions. That is to say, I'm seeing and hearing a lot of "buyer's remorse" from across the pond.

The petition in the link above would effectively institute Robert's Rules of Order, requiring a 2/3 national majority vote in order to withdraw the country from the EU. Our United States Congress uses the same rule when voting to pass laws or even to impeach a sitting President. It seems like a fairly reasonable measure to me given the divisiveness of the issue.

At any rate, just my $.02.

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  #63  
Old June 24th, 2016, 06:01 PM
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Scotland and London going to Remain petitions

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  #64  
Old June 24th, 2016, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Willh View Post
The petition in the link above would effectively institute Robert's Rules of Order, requiring a 2/3 national majority vote in order to withdraw the country from the EU. Our United States Congress uses the same rule when voting to pass laws or even to impeach a sitting President. It seems like a fairly reasonable measure to me given the divisiveness of the issue.

At any rate, just my $.02.

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Time for some high school social studies.

At no time does the U.S. congress require a 2/3 majority to pass a law. Both the house and the senate require simple majorities to pass laws. The confusing part is the senate usually requires a vote of 60 to release a bill for a vote on the floor.

As for impeachment, a bill of impeachment is brought by the house with a simple majority. If there is a conviction, it is done in the senate with a 2/3 majority.

As for the petition you are promoting, it is just like a bunch of cry baby liberals to change the rules after they lose. It's not like Brexit passed with 50.1%.

Mike
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  #65  
Old June 24th, 2016, 07:02 PM
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"As for the petition you are promoting, it is just like a bunch of cry baby liberals to change the rules after they lose. It's not like Brexit passed with 50.1%."


True dat....
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  #66  
Old June 24th, 2016, 08:06 PM
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Brexit

I'm surprised there hasn't been much said by the talking heads about the mess in the EU that the UK is leaving. Besides, they never really adopted the currency, so it's not like they were ever all-in. Germany is probably hating Brexit the most, as it just leaves them holding the EU bailout by themselves. Remember, the ECB has been 'kicking the can' for an eternity, without really fixing the Mediterranean problem...


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  #67  
Old June 24th, 2016, 08:06 PM
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  #68  
Old June 24th, 2016, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GuamPilot View Post
Time for some high school social studies.
And if I remember correctly, I believe a presidential veto overturn is 2/3 majority as well.
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  #69  
Old June 24th, 2016, 08:41 PM
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  #70  
Old June 25th, 2016, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by GuamPilot View Post
Time for some high school social studies. At no time does the U.S. congress require a 2/3 majority to pass a law. Both the house and the senate require simple majorities to pass laws. The confusing part is the senate usually requires a vote of 60 to release a bill for a vote on the floor. As for impeachment, a bill of impeachment is brought by the house with a simple majority. If there is a conviction, it is done in the senate with a 2/3 majority. As for the petition you are promoting, it is just like a bunch of cry baby liberals to change the rules after they lose. It's not like Brexit passed with 50.1%. Mike
Mike,

My apologies if you take exception to my statement sir, but please know that the ground I'm standing on is plenty firm. If you doubt me, then I would encourage you to see the link below for a high school social studies "refresher course":

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepol...ority-Vote.htm

It may not be applicable in all circumstances sir, but laws, such as those vetoed by the President, are passed by a 2/3 super-majority vote in both the House and the Senate. In addition, any amendment to the US Constitution must also be passed by 2/3 majority in both the House and the Senate. And, these are just two among several other provisions that require a super-majority vote in Congress. So when you state above that, "At no time does the U.S. congress require a 2/3 majority to pass a law", I'm afraid that any such assertion on your part is patently false.

As for the numbers, the official vote to leave was 51.9% for and 48.1% against, and that was from a participating 72% of the registered voting public in the UK. That is only a 3.8% difference overall and mere 1.8% over/ 2.0% under the 50.1% you cite as (presumably) reasonable grounds to question the validity of the vote to withdraw from the Union. Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be a close decision?

While you presume to paint me in favor of the interests of "cry baby liberals", the fact is that the British pound free fell this morning to lose nearly half its value in the span of just a few hours, a record low. I have both friends and clients who live and work in the UK. I don't care who you are, that's some scary stuff! And, if that wasn't enough, even the stock market here in the US took a significant hit today as a result of the vote, with the DOW Jones losing more than 500 points right after opening this morning. Given the interactions I've had with individuals in the UK since these events have transpired, I feel safe in saying that many in the UK who voted FOR the Brexit are now having second thoughts about how they cast their ballots. Indications are that a great number of people in the UK didn't take it seriously or simply didn't fully understand what they were voting for. Ridiculous as this may seem, the present circumstances in the UK were actually prophesied by none other than Plato himself, in his lectures on democracy.

Hopefully this gives you a better understanding of my position on the subject. But, with that said sir, I stand prepared to answer any retort you wish to give. Please though, for your own sake, be sure to fact check your response before you set to typing it out. And, if you don't mind, let's keep our discussion above board and gentlemanly, there's really no need to disparage anyone's high school education in regard to our discussion of this matter. Wouldn't you agree?
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  #71  
Old June 25th, 2016, 01:11 AM
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Mike,

My apologies if you take exception to my statement sir, but please know that the ground I'm standing on is plenty firm. If you doubt me, then I would encourage you to see the link below for a high school social studies "refresher course":

The Supermajority Vote in US Government

It may not be applicable in all circumstances sir, but laws, such as those vetoed by the President, are passed by a 2/3 super-majority vote in both the House and the Senate. In addition, any amendment to the US Constitution must also be passed by 2/3 majority in both the House and the Senate. And, these are just two among several other provisions that require a super-majority vote in Congress. So when you state above that, "At no time does the U.S. congress require a 2/3 majority to pass a law", I'm afraid that any such assertion on your part is patently false.

As for the numbers, the official vote to leave was 51.9% for and 48.1% against, and that was from a participating 72% of the registered voting public in the UK. That is only a 3.8% difference overall and mere 1.8% over/ 2.0% under the 50.1% you cite as (presumably) reasonable grounds to question the validity of the vote to withdraw from the Union. Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be a close decision?

While you presume to paint me in favor of the interests of "cry baby liberals", the fact is that the British pound free fell this morning to lose nearly half its value in the span of just a few hours, a record low. I have both friends and clients who live and work in the UK. I don't care who you are, that's some scary stuff! And, if that wasn't enough, even the stock market here in the US took a significant hit today as a result of the vote, with the DOW Jones losing more than 500 points right after opening this morning. Given the interactions I've had with individuals in the UK since these events have transpired, I feel safe in saying that many in the UK who voted FOR the Brexit are now having second thoughts about how they cast their ballots. Indications are that a great number of people in the UK didn't take it seriously or simply didn't fully understand what they were voting for. Ridiculous as this may seem, the present circumstances in the UK were actually prophesied by none other than Plato himself, in his lectures on democracy.

Hopefully this gives you a better understanding of my position on the subject. But, with that said sir, I stand prepared to answer any retort you wish to give. Please though, for your own sake, be sure to fact check your response before you set to typing it out. And, if you don't mind, let's keep our discussion above board and gentlemanly, there's really no need to disparage anyone's high school education in regard to our discussion of this matter. Wouldn't you agree?
First, I firmly stand on my fact that laws are passed by both the house and senate with simple majorities. A veto override is something much different and both functions are specifically and separately addressed in the constitution.

Congress passing laws - common.

Presidential veto - not common.

Congressional attempt to override a veto - very rare.

Successfully overriding a veto - extremely rare. And certainly not the normal way laws are passed in the U.S.

I agree we should keep our discussion above board, and I believe I had. I was saying that I was presenting high school level social studies because I was not attempting to present a graduate level discussion. (I agree saying something like 'you need to go back to high school' would be unreasonable offensive and not productive in a reasonable discussion.)

What do I believe is the close decision? Less than 1%, but that is as arbitrary as any other number. I do consider the 3.8% margin to be decisive, IMHO.

That some Britains are saying today they regret their vote, or didn't understand? No surprise, I guarantee you could also find the same comments had the Brexit vote failed. And this comes down to the most basic problem with a democratic vote, are the electorate educated enough to cast an informed ballot? What is that quote that democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others?

Now, you demand that I be careful about my facts after stating that the British Pound fell by HALF? I wish! My quick Google search says it fell about 8.7%. Significant? I would agree, yes. Half? Not even close!

With all due respect, several pieces of your ground are looking a little soft.

Going forward, I expect the liberals in Parliament will make a valiant attempt to ignore the Brexit results. So much for the voice of the people.

Sincerely,

Mike
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  #72  
Old June 25th, 2016, 01:12 AM
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When trump gets elected the dollar will drop over night. Eventually it will recover and europe will shit the bed when they have to do their next bailouts for some stupid financial decision to give more free shit to folks who haven't done anything in return. Who cares about the pound taking a hit. Everybody will second guess their vote for Trump. It's only natural.
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  #73  
Old June 25th, 2016, 04:09 AM
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Newspaper headlines: 'New Britain' and Brexit 'earthquake'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36627672

Chaos theory in full force. If this is what happens when politicians follow through on Election promises We're so screwed.
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  #74  
Old June 25th, 2016, 05:06 AM
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  #75  
Old June 25th, 2016, 07:32 AM
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Newspaper headlines: 'New Britain' and Brexit 'earthquake' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36627672 Chaos theory in full force. If this is what happens when politicians follow through on Election promises We're so screwed.
More mass hysteria than chaos theory. And this is what happens when politicians don't follow through. Nigel Farage admitted openly that their key campaign message that the UK economy would be £350 million a week better off is false. The remain campaign focused on the negative ramifications of an exit. One side told the truth and one side didn't. There are many people who are questioning the way they voted. I suspect if this were repeated the outcome would be vastly different.

Voters in a democracy get the outcome they deserve. It is vitally important to understand the full ramifications of your vote.
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  #76  
Old June 25th, 2016, 07:42 AM
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So Will I guess what you are saying is that because the vote didn't go in favor of world government/German rule the vote should be nullified? If the numbers were reversed and the remain side won by the same margin would you still be calling to change the rules of the vote after the fact? I bet not.
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  #77  
Old June 25th, 2016, 08:22 AM
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Are y'all watching this?!?! The pound has been in a free fall since I woke up this AM. It's currently trading at 0.733043 GBP = 1 USD !!!!

XE: (GBP/USD) British Pound to US Dollar Rate

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More common to see 1.36 USD = 1 GBP at this exchange rate...
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  #78  
Old June 25th, 2016, 08:59 AM
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Hi all, as someone in the UK that voted out, I am amused and the whinging lefties that want the vote overturned, what many have missed is the very negative and downright dishonest tactics employed by the government.
This along with many statements from politicians, POTUS included that if we left we could no longer be friends caused outrage amongst the average person - who the hell is Obama to tell another country to vote to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats in a different country.

Many of the comments have been about immigration, but the monetary waste in the EU has been a bigger issue - why decamp to a different country to hold a vote once a month - it cost millions - why because the Frence want it and oppose any change.

Another issue is convicted criminals, UK convicts a foreign person of a crime and jails them, the UK "should" then be able to deport them to their country of origin but these deportations get contested or just refused by their home contry leaving the UK with the cost of housing these scumbags.

What about rules passed by the EU ?, the UK accepts and implements all the rules that it must irrespective of cost to business or taxpayers, france for example ignores rules that would harm it's agriculture - animal welfare is one example.
The UK has blindly followed the dictacts of the EU to its cost and watched other countries ignore them with minor "acceptable" penaties, this is just wrong.

When Cameron went to the EU with a need to get something to go home with to show the EU cared about what was a genuine concern in the UK he got almost nothing, a small consecession that migrants have to wait before they can claim benefits, however 2 days later the head of the EU said it meant nothing as the UK would need EU permission to implement & it would not be given.
this was the death knell for Cameron.

As an aside anyone coming to the UK can claim benefit straight away if they are self employed - many come here to sell the BIG Issue its a magazine sold by the homeless etc on street corners these guys are all self employed.! what a joke.

appologies for the spelling it was bashed out...

Regards all
Gren
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Old June 25th, 2016, 10:37 AM
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Hi all, as someone in the UK that voted out, I am amused and the whinging lefties that want the vote overturned, what many have missed is the very negative and downright dishonest tactics employed by the government.
This along with many statements from politicians, POTUS included that if we left we could no longer be friends caused outrage amongst the average person - who the hell is Obama to tell another country to vote to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats in a different country.

Many of the comments have been about immigration, but the monetary waste in the EU has been a bigger issue - why decamp to a different country to hold a vote once a month - it cost millions - why because the Frence want it and oppose any change.

Another issue is convicted criminals, UK convicts a foreign person of a crime and jails them, the UK "should" then be able to deport them to their country of origin but these deportations get contested or just refused by their home contry leaving the UK with the cost of housing these scumbags.

What about rules passed by the EU ?, the UK accepts and implements all the rules that it must irrespective of cost to business or taxpayers, france for example ignores rules that would harm it's agriculture - animal welfare is one example.
The UK has blindly followed the dictacts of the EU to its cost and watched other countries ignore them with minor "acceptable" penaties, this is just wrong.

When Cameron went to the EU with a need to get something to go home with to show the EU cared about what was a genuine concern in the UK he got almost nothing, a small consecession that migrants have to wait before they can claim benefits, however 2 days later the head of the EU said it meant nothing as the UK would need EU permission to implement & it would not be given.
this was the death knell for Cameron.

As an aside anyone coming to the UK can claim benefit straight away if they are self employed - many come here to sell the BIG Issue its a magazine sold by the homeless etc on street corners these guys are all self employed.! what a joke.

appologies for the spelling it was bashed out...

Regards all
Gren
Gren,

The EU will open the floodgates and all your so called 'scumbags' will be pouring into the UK shortly - France will do nothing to stop migrants coming, likely they will help them 'complete their migration' with financial assistance. There is a minimum of 2 years before the UK can do anything about this now ...

You worry about a 'scumbags' claiming benefits but you ignore the many migrants who are working, taking the jobs the UK 'scumbags' are too lazy to do. Before the alienation of migrants the tabloids were full of lazy slob claiming benefits stories here. Working migrants contribute taxes to the economy and enlarge it. London is one of the largest 'French' cities in the world ... we attract huge numbers of highly qualified, motivated people to work and contribute to growth. Maybe these people aren't going to Wales and thus you have a higher proportion of 'scumbags' ... i don't honestly know.

Granted there is a cost to this EU expenditure and it absolutely needed improving, but the leave vote has made a set of challenges that will take 20-30 years to address.

The participation in the EU and the greater size of economy we have as a result more than paid for the costs you despise. Yes it's wasteful to spend millions on moving people ... no-one would disagree - but if for every pound spent on that boondoggle you got 100 back ... you might just think twice about cutting it off before you had an alternative.

As we move into a prolonged recession, the economy will shrink significantly, migration here will increase, tax, borrowing costs will all rise. Jobs will be lost, unemployment will likely move above 10% as investment will be made in more stable countries and regions. It will be a very long time before the UK can crawl its way back to stability. It's probably worth pointing out that the regions outside the south east will get hit earliest, take the deepest pain and be last to benefit ...

The big irony is that the leadership that's available to perform this monumental transformation is the likes of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. Self serving scumbags of the first order!

The UK will get back its decision making ... but guess what ... all those valuable trade agreements we are now free to negotiate ... what's the first thing they will demand??

Visa free travel and work rights ... the very core of the agreements we are ripping up.

No one should be stupid enough to believe any politician ... Nigel Farage admitted as much when he said the Leave campaign slogan about GBP 350 Million per week for the NHS is in fact complete bullshit.

You've given a few politicians a bloody nose, told the EU to f' off ... but the trade off is going to be a prolonged period of pain.

I don't want the vote overturned, what's done is done. As i mentioned before voters get the outcome they deserve - even if it is not the nirvana they hoped it would be.


I hope I'm young enough to see it come good.
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  #80  
Old June 25th, 2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GuamPilot View Post
First, I firmly stand on my fact that laws are passed by both the house and senate with simple majorities. A veto override is something much different and both functions are specifically and separately addressed in the constitution. Congress passing laws - common. Presidential veto - not common. Congressional attempt to override a veto - very rare. Successfully overriding a veto - extremely rare. And certainly not the normal way laws are passed in the U.S. I agree we should keep our discussion above board, and I believe I had. I was saying that I was presenting high school level social studies because I was not attempting to present a graduate level discussion. (I agree saying something like 'you need to go back to high school' would be unreasonable offensive and not productive in a reasonable discussion.) What do I believe is the close decision? Less than 1%, but that is as arbitrary as any other number. I do consider the 3.8% margin to be decisive, IMHO. That some Britains are saying today they regret their vote, or didn't understand? No surprise, I guarantee you could also find the same comments had the Brexit vote failed. And this comes down to the most basic problem with a democratic vote, are the electorate educated enough to cast an informed ballot? What is that quote that democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others? Now, you demand that I be careful about my facts after stating that the British Pound fell by HALF? I wish! My quick Google search says it fell about 8.7%. Significant? I would agree, yes. Half? Not even close! With all due respect, several pieces of your ground are looking a little soft. Going forward, I expect the liberals in Parliament will make a valiant attempt to ignore the Brexit results. So much for the voice of the people. Sincerely, Mike
Mike,

Touché sir on your point regarding the exchange rate, clearly an overstatement on my part. But, at least we both agree that the drop in value is concerning. And, I do understand and appreciate your position on this issue. You are absolutely correct in stating that under normal everyday circumstances, laws will typically pass or fail in Congress by way of a simple majority vote. But, I hope you will concede that your earlier generalized statement that no law requires a 2/3 vote for passage was incorrect.

And, you do bring up another valid point; there are those "rare" circumstances which dictate a super-majority be required, such as when there is disagreement between the President and Congress over whether a law is, in fact, proper or when an amendment is sought to be made to the Constitution. Obviously, these are issue that require more thought and weight in order to be passed. This is part of the checks and balances system laid out by our forefathers. The last time the Constitution was amended was in 1992, when the 27th Amendment (pertaining to Congressional salaries) was finally ratified, a mere 202-years after it was first proposed along with the first ten Constitutional Amendments, which we now refer to as the Bill of Rights.

I submit to you that a vote by the UK to leave the EU is one of those circumstances that should fall into the "rare" category, akin to amending the constitution, and not in the same normal everyday manner which may be easily changed based on the changing political mood. The UK leaving the EU is not that far removed from the concept of a State seeking to succeed from the United States. Except instead of a state, it's a nation. In other, words, it's kind of a big deal! In support, I might point out that our country fought a war over such an issue. In my opinion if you have 48% of the nation's population (or higher) against the decision, not to mention the entire kingdom of Scotland and the majority of Northern Ireland, then it presents a bit of a problem. In my opinion, a 3.8% margin of victory is not decisive as to the issue. And, believe it or not, the gentleman who led the leave vote actually agrees:

“In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.” - Nigel Farage, 17 May 2016

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57...f12?edition=uk

By normal operation, everyday laws in Congress are passed and struck down quite frequently. But, when was the last time a Constitutional Amendment was struck down? Remember that time when our country thought not having alcohol was a great idea?! The Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution was ratified in January 16th, 1919, ushering in the period of prohibition. A brisk 14 years later and we were sober enough to realize that we had made a huge mistake. So, on December 5th, 1933, the states ratified the 21st Amendment, striking down the 18th Amendment and bringing an end to the era of the government mandated sobriety.

As stated before, it's just my $.02. Some people will value it, some people won't. But, pennies on the ground really. No one is required to pick them just as no one is required to agree with me. At the end of the day, I do enjoy good friendly discourse, so long as we can do so and still shake hands. And, on that note, I'd like to share the following quote:

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson to William Hamilton, April 22, 1800

Best wishes for your weekend sir and if/when we ever meet in-person, it would be my pleasure to shake your hand.
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