ARKONIK's Response to: Homeland Security took my 110 - Page 16 - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #301  
Old November 29th, 2015, 06:32 PM
phoenix37's Avatar
phoenix37
Status: Offline
john
97 D90 ST / 1957 S1 109/ 1983 LS110
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Venice, CA/Yarmouth,ME
Posts: 5,787
Registry
for starters build tolerances...I just did the factory tour and as I think Craig stated early Defenders have a build tolerance of a 1/4 of an inch...compare that to a new range rover that has a build tolerance of a fraction of a mm..... thats alot of room to get wet.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #302  
Old November 29th, 2015, 06:52 PM
jason1st
Status: Offline
Jason Crandall
2006 LR3 2012 SC 1983 110
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
for starters build tolerances...I just did the factory tour and as I think Craig stated early Defenders have a build tolerance of a 1/4 of an inch...compare that to a new range rover that has a build tolerance of a fraction of a mm..... thats alot of room to get wet.
I don't know why you're having so much trouble understanding what I'm saying.

"Build tolerance" at the factory has absolutely nothing to do with a $100K Defender build.

You're telling me the $175K Spectre Defenderleaks because of the build tolerance of a new one at the factory?

When you take something apart and the re-build it as new with a bunch of money you raise the "build tolerance".

Hence why I say "a $100K restored caddy has a better build tolerance than it was when it left the factory new".
Reply With Quote
  #303  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:07 PM
phoenix37's Avatar
phoenix37
Status: Offline
john
97 D90 ST / 1957 S1 109/ 1983 LS110
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Venice, CA/Yarmouth,ME
Posts: 5,787
Registry
I get what you're saying....trust me for 100k I would also want a 400hp 6.2 LS powered 110 with a puma dash etc etc but Im not sure why you aren't understanding that vehicle can't be brought in the country... yes it could be built here but not imported.

how do you change the tolerances of body panels?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #304  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:12 PM
Jymmiejamz's Avatar
Jymmiejamz
Status: Offline
Jimmy
1995 D90 SW #365
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 3,468
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post

how do you change the tolerances of body panels?
Because of the loose build tolerances more adjustment is required to get it right. Anyone can bolt a Defender body together, but very few will spend the time to make it right. Even my Defender is a good example of that. It may be factory, or may be from a shoddy rebuild, but nothing lines up correctly, and because of that it leaks.





__________________
Car Camping Collective founding member and Treasurer
Reply With Quote
  #305  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:14 PM
BlackField's Avatar
BlackField
Status: Offline
Oscar
D110
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason1st View Post
What about a Defender makes it impossible to seal up regardless of $$$ spent?
Nothing. Follow the water ingress PDF and get a bit creative. If you don't want a leaky defender and have one, the owner or thier shop lacks the ability or desire to fix it.
__________________
Lemmings as you know them are a Disney fabricated lie. The truth is out there.
Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:15 PM
Jonesy's Avatar
Jonesy
Status: Offline
Craig
87 D110 (Ruby)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Leesburg, VA
Posts: 4,446
Registry
If nuts and bolts hold panels versus seam welding....IT LEAKS
__________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius, is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #307  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:20 PM
phoenix37's Avatar
phoenix37
Status: Offline
john
97 D90 ST / 1957 S1 109/ 1983 LS110
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Venice, CA/Yarmouth,ME
Posts: 5,787
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
Nothing. Follow the water ingress PDF and get a bit creative. If you don't want a leaky defender and have one, the owner or thier shop lacks the ability or desire to fix it.
Come on guys really? Lets not try and make this truck something it isnt... even if its perfectly water tight when it rolls out of the building that vehicle will get hot...then cold... shrink then swell...the brand new door seals will soften..the door shims will shift and guess what the thing is going to leak...

jeesh...move on.
Reply With Quote
  #308  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:23 PM
the rover shop
Status: Offline
shayne young
89,93 & 95 camel trophy 110s 06 130
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: ft lauderdale florida
Posts: 5,225
In order to make a 25-30 year old defender NOT leak you basically would have to redesign the way it is assembled...sure, we could use seam sealer or 5200 on the floor panels and spoodge rtf into the areas where they go together to get a water tight seal, but there are going to be functional design items that are prone to leaking, the windscreen frame to bulkhead seal is one, you cannot redesign the fact that where the two pieces come together there is a break in the continuity of the metal that has to have a door seal go over it..it's gonna leak...the bulkhead vents, use em a couple of times and they can leak... As I mentioned before, if you actually built one of these you would see that it's not as simple as.."make it not leak"... Sure, it could be done, but them people would be bitching that they can't pull their floor panels out to access the tranny etc etc..there is a shitload of joints and thru holes in the body of a defender.. As mentioned, that's why they made pull out mats, it wasn't because Land Rover couldn't make the defender water tight...its that it wasn't on the list of priorities for the use specification of what the truck was meant for...and the modular design to allow it to be made in different configurations... And I would bet my bottom dollar that the specter does indeed leak...how much, I don't know.. The gaps in the floors aren't there to let the water in...its to let the water OUT..
Reply With Quote
  #309  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:24 PM
Jonesy's Avatar
Jonesy
Status: Offline
Craig
87 D110 (Ruby)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Leesburg, VA
Posts: 4,446
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Because of the loose build tolerances more adjustment is required to get it right. Anyone can bolt a Defender body together, but very few will spend the time to make it right. Even my Defender is a good example of that. It may be factory, or may be from a shoddy rebuild, but nothing lines up correctly, and because of that it leaks.





Then fix it! Oh, thats right....I don't think you can.

Not picking on you mate - just saying it can't be done. I don't care how much you spend....anint no way you will make a Defender waterproof.
__________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius, is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #310  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:25 PM
mongosd2's Avatar
mongosd2
Status: Offline
Frank Rafka
01 D2 96 D1 83 110
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tucson
Posts: 861
This whole thread is fucked up…it is not hard to solve the water ingress on these trucks, especially when your paying a company to make it right. The red 110 we restored doesn't leak, why, because we spent the time to make sure it didn't. You cannot compare a rebuilt truck to a factory build, it should be much better.

For you guy's to be arguing about this is hilarious…stop defending the fact that this shop sucks ass…

Quick edit:
Most dropping 75k plus on a rebuild is not going to even notice if the floor panels have been assemble with seam sealer...
Reply With Quote
  #311  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:26 PM
Jymmiejamz's Avatar
Jymmiejamz
Status: Offline
Jimmy
1995 D90 SW #365
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 3,468
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
Nothing. Follow the water ingress PDF and get a bit creative. If you don't want a leaky defender and have one, the owner or thier shop lacks the ability or desire to fix it.
Exactly.

I've had to pull the entire interior out of newer Land Rovers to look for water leaks. Sometimes it is quick, sometimes it takes many hours. It takes two people to diagnose water leaks. One person inside the vehicle (with the interior trim removed) and one person on the outside with a garden hose slowly spraying every inch of the vehicle. Sometimes we have to leave a hose spraying on the roof for hours before water will start leaking inside the vehicle.
__________________
Car Camping Collective founding member and Treasurer
Reply With Quote
  #312  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:29 PM
Jonesy's Avatar
Jonesy
Status: Offline
Craig
87 D110 (Ruby)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Leesburg, VA
Posts: 4,446
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Exactly.

I've had to pull the entire interior out of newer Land Rovers to look for water leaks. Sometimes it is quick, sometimes it takes many hours. It takes two people to diagnose water leaks. One person inside the vehicle (with the interior trim removed) and one person on the outside with a garden hose slowly spraying every inch of the vehicle. Sometimes we have to leave a hose spraying on the roof for hours before water will start leaking inside the vehicle.
what about a smoke test? Seems like that works pretty well
__________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius, is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #313  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:32 PM
Jymmiejamz's Avatar
Jymmiejamz
Status: Offline
Jimmy
1995 D90 SW #365
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 3,468
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
Then fix it! Oh, thats right....I don't think you can.

Not picking on you mate - just saying it can't be done. I don't care how much you spend....anint no way you will make a Defender waterproof.
You seriously think that I couldn't fix the water leaks in my Defender? The top of the rear door doesn't touch the door seal and I can see daylight out of the top of the driver's door when driving. I live in the city and don't have a garage. Any work I do on my Defender pretty much needs to be done in less than 4 hours at work. I have no carpets, so water leaks aren't a huge issue for me.

I did just fix my vent seal leak that was caused by someone's 'custom' seal that didn't fit properly. I replaced it with a Genuine seal and the leak stopped, imagine that!



------ Follow up post added November 29th, 2015 07:34 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
what about a smoke test? Seems like that works pretty well
I've never heard of doing that, but I guess it could work. I've heard of ultrasonic testing.
__________________
Car Camping Collective founding member and Treasurer
Reply With Quote
  #314  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:36 PM
phoenix37's Avatar
phoenix37
Status: Offline
john
97 D90 ST / 1957 S1 109/ 1983 LS110
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Venice, CA/Yarmouth,ME
Posts: 5,787
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongosd2 View Post
This whole thread is fucked up…it is not hard to solve the water ingress on these trucks, especially when your paying a company to make it right. The red 110 we restored doesn't leak, why, because we spent the time to make sure it didn't. You cannot compare a rebuilt truck to a factory build, it should be much better.

For you guy's to be arguing about this is hilarious…stop defending the fact that this shop sucks ass…

Quick edit:
Most dropping 75k plus on a rebuild is not going to even notice if the floor panels have been assemble with seam sealer...

it doesnt leak because you live in Arizona for the record I'm not defending anyone... just yet to see a defender that is leak free..
Reply With Quote
  #315  
Old November 29th, 2015, 07:59 PM
jason1st
Status: Offline
Jason Crandall
2006 LR3 2012 SC 1983 110
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
Nothing. Follow the water ingress PDF and get a bit creative. If you don't want a leaky defender and have one, the owner or thier shop lacks the ability or desire to fix it.
That's exactly what I've been saying the last 2 pages.

------ Follow up post added November 29th, 2015 08:02 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
If nuts and bolts hold panels versus seam welding....IT LEAKS
There's more to a build than "leaks".

The point of this whole thread is "what do you get for your $$$" in Defender land and the people doing business in Defender land who use this lame excuse for shitty workmanship.
Reply With Quote
  #316  
Old November 29th, 2015, 08:07 PM
mongosd2's Avatar
mongosd2
Status: Offline
Frank Rafka
01 D2 96 D1 83 110
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tucson
Posts: 861
Oh it's rains here...and there this thing called a hose...

Just sayin' it's not hard to do if you look at it realistically. How many will be taking apart their 75k defenders in the bush...
Reply With Quote
  #317  
Old November 29th, 2015, 08:16 PM
mgreenspan's Avatar
mgreenspan
Status: Offline
Matthew Greenspan
Land Rovers
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Nevada City
Posts: 1,719
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
Who are the guys that went to Arkonik?
The ones on the quasi-defensive side of this argument? Mwahahaha...
__________________
Do not read the next sentence.

You little rebel, I like you.
Reply With Quote
  #318  
Old November 29th, 2015, 08:28 PM
the rover shop
Status: Offline
shayne young
89,93 & 95 camel trophy 110s 06 130
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: ft lauderdale florida
Posts: 5,225
one mans quasi knowledge is another mans knowing what he's talking about due to actually having been there seen that... instead of just talking out his arse about something he knows jack all about...
Reply With Quote
  #319  
Old November 29th, 2015, 09:04 PM
don's Avatar
don
Status: Offline
Don Bunnell
'86 110 3dr ST
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rumson, NJ
Posts: 4,272
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Come on guys really? Lets not try and make this truck something it isnt... even if its perfectly water tight when it rolls out of the building that vehicle will get hot...then cold... shrink then swell...the brand new door seals will soften..the door shims will shift and guess what the thing is going to leak... jeesh...move on.
Exactly - you are talking thin gauge aluminum sheet (and not the greatest grade) that is pop riveted together with some spot welds here and there.

Add those body pieces to a ton of other little parts that are bolted and pop riveted together and that is a Defender. O yeah - many of those parts work amongst a bunch of different models/configurations.

Like Shayne said they are made to be broken down quickly and with very basic tools. My Suburban is sealed up like a duck's ass but I would not want to change it from RH to LH drive or pull the TCase in my driveway.

When I rebuilt my tub I kept thinking WTF did LR build it that way? Well with a break and a rivet gun you can put one together and probably teach a 4th grader how to do it. Look at some of Ash's work and see how much nicer it could be.
Reply With Quote
  #320  
Old November 29th, 2015, 09:11 PM
RX6RCROL's Avatar
RX6RCROL
Status: Offline
Matthew Hedrick
1994 D-90 #646
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wake Forest North Carolina
Posts: 1,099
Registry
Leak proofing.

http://www.landroverweb.com/Pdf-file...ess_Manual.pdf

Click image for larger version

Name:	image-3338671822.jpg
Views:	242
Size:	188.6 KB
ID:	135886
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Homeland Security took my 110 C391HAT Misc. Chit-Chat 2371 July 15th, 2017 10:15 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:29 PM.


Copyright