Are High End Defenders still selling? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old October 30th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Disco_Stu
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Are High End Defenders still selling?

I periodically look around autotrader and ebay at the defender listings, if for no other reason than to give me something to lust after from time to time. And it started to seem like lately all the high priced low mileage defenders listed by copley and other dealers have been sitting on the market for a while. In fact it doesn't seem like copley's listings even get bids anymore. I started to look through the completed listings and it was surprising to me how many defenders AREN'T selling. Actually very few are being sold, interestingly though it looks like yellow is the color to have if you want to sell, since 3 of the 4 yellow defenders actually made it to their reserve price.

It also seems like there is strating to be a whole lot more non-NAS defenders for sale in the US, hell there were 2 different TD5's for sale, and a bunch of older ones.

But are the prices getting so that it is more economical to buy a 100k vehicle and bring it back to new condition, or has the love affair ended for the defender with the wealthy people that would by a $40,000 10+ year old vehicle?
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  #2  
Old October 30th, 2006, 06:29 PM
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... maybe they are buying Rubicons or H2's instead.
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  #3  
Old October 31st, 2006, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco_Stu
I periodically look around autotrader and ebay at the defender listings, if for no other reason than to give me something to lust after from time to time. And it started to seem like lately all the high priced low mileage defenders listed by copley and other dealers have been sitting on the market for a while. In fact it doesn't seem like copley's listings even get bids anymore. I started to look through the completed listings and it was surprising to me how many defenders AREN'T selling. Actually very few are being sold, interestingly though it looks like yellow is the color to have if you want to sell, since 3 of the 4 yellow defenders actually made it to their reserve price.

It also seems like there is strating to be a whole lot more non-NAS defenders for sale in the US, hell there were 2 different TD5's for sale, and a bunch of older ones.

But are the prices getting so that it is more economical to buy a 100k vehicle and bring it back to new condition, or has the love affair ended for the defender with the wealthy people that would by a $40,000 10+ year old vehicle?

Don't know where you are looking, but we are currently swamped with work and can not build high end 110s fast enough to meet demand. 90 work has never been as busy as we are right now.
Ebay isn't for real buyers IMO and is not a judge of the market.
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  #4  
Old October 31st, 2006, 01:58 PM
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stu keeping yall busy
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  #5  
Old October 31st, 2006, 02:43 PM
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Now the new thing is to get a restored 110/90. They are old enough that you can say you bought a restored one (instead of a used one) and it sounds even cooler.

Ron
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  #6  
Old October 31st, 2006, 06:21 PM
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Trevor K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Now the new thing is to get a restored 110/90. They are old enough that you can say you bought a restored one (instead of a used one) and it sounds even cooler.

Ron
the highest priced ones i've seen are ones that have been converted, either a diesel swap, or a 110 half cab setup, and things liek that, your not unique just driving a rover...
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  #7  
Old October 31st, 2006, 07:06 PM
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I do think defenders are getting harder to sell than say a year or two ago. I had a pretty hard time selling my black 95 ST with 107K on it.
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  #8  
Old October 31st, 2006, 07:22 PM
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With old ones importable soon I would think the price of an old high milage truck has to drop if you are going to rebuild it anyway. You are really just buying a title if you are going to repower and rechassis anyway.
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  #9  
Old October 31st, 2006, 07:30 PM
Disco_Stu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Don't know where you are looking, but we are currently swamped with work and can not build high end 110s fast enough to meet demand. 90 work has never been as busy as we are right now.
Ebay isn't for real buyers IMO and is not a judge of the market.

Yeah I am by no means a defender market expert, I guess I am just used to seeing the defenders go in every direction for lots of money. Are the 110's your building off of 90NAS chasis, or something else? If so are they the pristine 90's or the high mileage ones that don't fetch much money? I would assume the 90 work is restore projects right?
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  #10  
Old October 31st, 2006, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco_Stu
I periodically look around autotrader and ebay at the defender listings, if for no other reason than to give me something to lust after from time to time. And it started to seem like lately all the high priced low mileage defenders listed by copley and other dealers have been sitting on the market for a while. In fact it doesn't seem like copley's listings even get bids anymore. I started to look through the completed listings and it was surprising to me how many defenders AREN'T selling. Actually very few are being sold, interestingly though it looks like yellow is the color to have if you want to sell, since 3 of the 4 yellow defenders actually made it to their reserve price.

It also seems like there is strating to be a whole lot more non-NAS defenders for sale in the US, hell there were 2 different TD5's for sale, and a bunch of older ones.

But are the prices getting so that it is more economical to buy a 100k vehicle and bring it back to new condition, or has the love affair ended for the defender with the wealthy people that would by a $40,000 10+ year old vehicle?
I check out Copley weekly and I have seen many D-90s pass through his doors. the low mileage ones seem sold before they arrive at his shop. With winter rearing it's ugly head I think sales will be sluggish anyway especially the soft top.
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  #11  
Old October 31st, 2006, 08:20 PM
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Stock low mileage D90's bring in the bucks. But just because it's low mileage, doesn't mean it won't have issues.
Any D90 sitting pretty without getting run for some time will have issues. A 35K miles truck not maintained properly will also have issues. Buy a 25K miles truck for $40K?, or a 100K miles truck for $20K. What's the better deal?

$20K plus a diesel re-power=$35K-$40K

$40K for a 25K truck....gives you a low mileage truck..with possible issues.
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  #12  
Old November 1st, 2006, 11:01 AM
Disco_Stu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewap

$20K plus a diesel re-power=$35K-$40K

$40K for a 25K truck....gives you a low mileage truck..with possible issues.
Thats what I was thinking, and I am guessing this is the kind of decision making that is keeping ECR so busy, but that why I asked what kind of trucks they are getting in.
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  #13  
Old November 1st, 2006, 11:11 AM
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If I could do body and especially paint work I would make a killing buying and reselling (not that I don't do ok now--well except for the I don't really try to sell anything :-). Everything else I can do, maybe I need to find a good paint guy (I can just replace body panels).
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  #14  
Old November 1st, 2006, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
If I could do body and especially paint work I would make a killing buying and reselling (not that I don't do ok now--well except for the I don't really try to sell anything :-). Everything else I can do, maybe I need to find a good paint guy (I can just replace body panels).
Yeah good luck with that.
Ever wonder why we don't buy beater 90s and restore them for resale... beacuse there is ZERO money in it.

Its all about the odometer for those with cash. A D90 with 100K miles is great for DIY guys and such, but in the end you spend more than just buying a nice one if you have a shop do it. If you DIY then it can be a nice way to go as you don't bill out your hours, but when you buy that high mile 90 and want to go Tdi, it isn't just the engine that has high miles. You'll need suspension bushings, brakes, paint, seat bases etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Now the new thing is to get a restored 110/90. They are old enough that you can say you bought a restored one (instead of a used one) and it sounds even cooler.

Ron
On a 110 I'd say there is some customer feedback that they want "restored" because most NAS 110s are so beat, but in the 90 market today high miles or a restoration is still the kiss of death. Maybe when the low miles D90s are all gone then a rebuild will be "fashionable", but right now it isn't.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco_Stu
Thats what I was thinking, and I am guessing this is the kind of decision making that is keeping ECR so busy, but that why I asked what kind of trucks they are getting in.
We get 2 types of rigs. #1 is a clean D90 that needs tweaks and upgrades and some sorting. We rarely see beater 90s.
#2 is 110s of all conditions... usually pretty bad.
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  #15  
Old November 1st, 2006, 01:44 PM
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"Ever wonder why we don't buy beater 90s and restore them for resale... beacuse there is ZERO money in it."

You play at a different end of the market than I do. I buy them dirt cheap with "issues," drive them for a year or two and get them running right and then sell them slightly below market. Making 5k plus in the process, even net of expenses. You have to bill hours on everything and you tend to make everything perfect or replace with new. Also, you do work for customers' cars. People pay more to do what they want to their car as opposed to buying something someone else did to a car they do not already own.

I think if I could get them looking as good as I get them to run, then I could do a little better.

At the moment there are enough clean, low milage D90s that demand is satiated. Once that supply drys up, or people start realizing how big of piles a lot of them are, then you will see the D90 market go the way of the D110 market. At this point, no one wants to shell out close to six figures for a resto on a D90.

All that being said, if I was not otherwise gainfully employed I would take rusty, beater D90s and make them into 110s. The market is now at a point where this is economically viable (IMHO) because I think they would command at least high 20s to low 30s with original style drivetrains and new galvanized frames. I have been working on a budget to do just that:

Beater D90 10-15k
New Frame 3k (RN)
Rear Body 2k
Paint 1k (doing prep myself)
Spring cups, new rear DS, new rear springs, brake lines, fuel lines, electrical etc. etc. 1k
Interior 1k
Used RRC tank $50
Plus you get at least 2k back from the old 90 frame, 90 fuel tank, the rear 90 tub and especially the rear safari cage.

The key thing is to make it as stock as possible and get it looking sharp. I think that is where the market is. The downside to the buyer is you get 10-12 year old suspension bushings, steering etc etc. Not that could not be done in the process, but I think my idea is what you are doing is a frame and body swap on an existing truck. Given how much a lot of the D90s and D110s I know of get used, this would be fine for most users. Perfect shore truck that never leaves the island. It just would take me too much time to do. I did my series resto in what amounted to be two months of work on holiday's from school, but now I just don't have the time to do more than keep my current junk running.

Follow-up Post:

"in the 90 market today high miles or a restoration is still the kiss of death"

You really think so? I mean high miles I agree, but the couple trucks I saw that could have said to be "restored" did quite well.

I would think that even a high miles truck would get good money if it had a new 4.6 or tdi and galvy frame, fresh paint and a clean body, new interior etc.
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  #16  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 11:42 PM
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I would imagine a lot of the past buyers of high-end low mileage D90s were like me. I bought a 3 year old D90 with 12K miles and paid $54K for it and had to finance it for 12 months. I seriously doubt that financing is as easy as it was 6 years ago.

For me today I would have to consider that for $10-20K less I could buy a brand new Rubicon (at 0% interest no less).

That said I doubt that any of ECRs clients finance anything at all.
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  #17  
Old November 3rd, 2006, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
... but in the 90 market today high miles or a restoration is still the kiss of death.
Ever try the kool-aid from that Copley dude?
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