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  #21  
Old August 25th, 2016, 01:45 PM
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The basic gist of it is that the 25 year exemption rule for the vehicle stipulates that you can't change it later on. But it is a rule that is not enforced and is not enforceable.
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  #22  
Old August 25th, 2016, 01:47 PM
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It's the second,

"Mounting an engine in an existing LDV, motorcycle, LDT, MDPV, or chassis-certified
HDV that is certified violates the Clean Air Act unless the engine replacement is identical
to the engine being replaced;"

At least as it would apply to any NAS spec vehicle. Imported ROW would likely follow the same guidelines.

------ Follow up post added August 25th, 2016 01:51 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
The basic gist of it is that the 25 year exemption rule for the vehicle stipulates that you can't change it later on. But it is a rule that is not enforced and is not enforceable.
Agreed - it makes no difference whether you are installing a Tdi, a Puma, or an LS it is all an equal breach.

Puma's seem to get extra vilification for some reason. Hence my original comment - this Puma 110 is just as illegal as any 300Tdi swapped 110 (so who cares).
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  #23  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:02 PM
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I'm sure there are scores of legal Puma truck here in the US via diplomatic imports, kit builds, etc..... Why chastise anybody who has one? Jealousy? Lets all celebrate the vehicles and hope to one day own one or two of them.
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  #24  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:16 PM
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So we should all celebrate the fact that the truck was bought for about $60,000 Canadian (so about $46,000US) and then illegally imported, and may sell to some unsuspecting sucker for about $100,000. (hopefully that poor unsuspecting sucker doesn't get his truck taken away some day. Is it his fault he was cheated and lied to buy the seller about what he really has bought?)

So, crime does pay. In this case it could be about 50k.

I wonder if everyone should turn a blind eye to the guy that comes back from Columbia with a large bag of "talcum powder". How do we all feel about that guy?
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  #25  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
I'm sure there are scores of legal Puma truck here in the US via diplomatic imports, kit builds, etc..... Why chastise anybody who has one? Jealousy? Lets all celebrate the vehicles and hope to one day own one or two of them.
True!
We repower US cars all the time, it's an entire industry for goodness sake.
I think the issue is more around when the work is done (after in the USA) and how the seller represents the upgrades/updates.
The GOV shouldn't have a say in what we do to our cars but they do.
We have laws stating that if we place a LS engine in a modern Toyota Tundra it is breaking the law but no one cares about that since its a common model sold in the US and really nothing special.
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  #26  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDN38 View Post
So we should all celebrate the fact that the truck was bought for about $60,000 Canadian (so about $46,000US) and then illegally imported, and may sell to some unsuspecting sucker for about $100,000. (hopefully that poor unsuspecting sucker doesn't get his truck taken away some day. Is it his fault he was cheated and lied to buy the seller about what he really has bought?)

So, crime does pay. In this case it could be about 50k.

I wonder if everyone should turn a blind eye to the guy that comes back from Columbia with a large bag of "talcum powder". How do we all feel about that guy?

Do you know that first hand? Could it not have been bought and parted out? No law against importing puma parts and rebuilding an old truck with them is there? Ive seen quite a few builds using puma dashes and hoods. Are those all illegal imports also?
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  #27  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:22 PM
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Yet TV is full of guys building there things .... and they drive on the road all the time.

How is this, legal... or safe?

The laws, and enforcement of them are 2 very different things.
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  #28  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDN38 View Post
So we should all celebrate the fact that the truck was bought for about $60,000 Canadian (so about $46,000US) and then illegally imported, and may sell to some unsuspecting sucker for about $100,000. (hopefully that poor unsuspecting sucker doesn't get his truck taken away some day. Is it his fault he was cheated and lied to buy the seller about what he really has bought?)

So, crime does pay. In this case it could be about 50k.

I wonder if everyone should turn a blind eye to the guy that comes back from Columbia with a large bag of "talcum powder". How do we all feel about that guy?
Scott,
Reading is fundamental. Did I say illegally imported or encouraged people to do so? You obviously have an axe to grind with somebody so please don't let me stand in your way.

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  #29  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Do you know that first hand? Could it not have been bought and parted out? No law against importing puma parts and rebuilding an old truck with them is there?
If you look at the photos posted at the start of the thread, and the bay ad... same truck...100% no if's about it. Stickers on the back window have been removed and the white text on the mud flaps photoshopped out.

I know someone here locally that was interested in the truck, but didn't follow through on it as it's a heat score... being a newer and obviously VIN swapped vehicle.
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  #30  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:28 PM
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The concern on this truck is whether or not the restoration was done before or after import to the USA. If done before, it leaves open the possibility for CBP to seize in the future.
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  #31  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:34 PM
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I cant access the ebay listing due to the web here (long story).
If this is a true puma that is from from 2007-2016 with correct VIN, then this strikes a different nerve than if it was an 80s rebuilt.
Being new, this truck is not going through some bureaucratic loophole like engine conversion follow, it breaks a lot more laws and it marks is itself as numero uno on any CBP agency hit list.

I think this thread started off assuming this as a Puma and not a rebuilt and now it has devolved into the well rehearsed legalities of engine conversions which everyone knows.

If it is a puma then it would be illegal in Canada as well (younger than 15 years) so it must be a rebuilt truck with modern equipment. Yes this makes the truck a tad sketchy crossing the border as it will garner possible extra attention as it comes from Ontario, if its not already in the lower 48 already.
It seems to be a nicely rebuilt truck that someone may drop 100K on, which is good for the 80s 110 five door market if you are looking to sell. This Puma conversion is most likely just like any other truck that is being sold as rebuilt by various people and vendors here.

Now if this truck is VIN swapped... we all know that is not worth the gamble. The original truck could of been stolen and vin swapped. Plus there is no statute of limitations (i think) for customs and border violations , so several years from now your truck could disappear with the help Uncle Sam.
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  #32  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
I'm sure there are scores of legal Puma truck here in the US via diplomatic imports, kit builds, etc..... Why chastise anybody who has one? Jealousy? Lets all celebrate the vehicles and hope to one day own one or two of them.
I am sure there legal Pumas in the US and Canada, diplomats etc. I don't have an issue with that. This is certainly not one. It's breaking the law for profit. That is my axe to grind.

I would love to own a Puma truck once they are legal to own here. Until then I'll wait., I'm happy with my TD5. I could swap the VIN, take it to the US and make money, but hey, someone has to follow the laws.
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  #33  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDN38 View Post
If you look at the photos posted at the start of the thread, and the bay ad... same truck...100% no if's about it. Stickers on the back window have been removed and the white text on the mud flaps photoshopped out.

I know someone here locally that was interested in the truck, but didn't follow through on it as it's a heat score... being a newer and obviously VIN swapped vehicle.
So you know 100% its a new puma not a rebuild?! hmm sure looks like this truck


http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...eferrerid=3742
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  #34  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:45 PM
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It's a Puma truck.
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  #35  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:49 PM
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This is no real difference than a rebuild for a 1932 ford with all modern components... Custom low rider tubular frame, small block V8, and so on.
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  #36  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CDN38 View Post
I am sure there legal Pumas in the US and Canada, diplomats etc. I don't have an issue with that. This is certainly not one. It's breaking the law for profit. That is my axe to grind.
In this case the VIN decodes as:
SAL Manufacturer code: Land Rover
LD Model: Defender (for early models: Ninety, or One Ten)
H Wheel base: 110 inch
M Body type: 4-door station wagon (LWB)
V Engine type: 3.5 litre V8 petrol, carburettor
8 Steering and transmission: Left-hand drive (LHD), 5-speed manual (LT85, LT77, LT77S, R380 or other)
F Model year: 1989
A Assembly location: Solihull, UK
100100 Serial number

The fact that it is on a galvanized chassis suggests to me that it was assembled stateside and not a VIN swap. If I was to buy this truck I would have to have dozens of questions answered and documentation provided but I see no proof that is is a straight up VIN swap. Breathe deep, have a donut, take the family out to Tim Hortons for dinner and relax. It's a beautiful time to be a Defender owner and we all need to thank the Brexit folks for that.

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  #37  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
The basic gist of it is that the 25 year exemption rule for the vehicle stipulates that you can't change it later on. But it is a rule that is not enforced and is not enforceable.
Where does it stipulate this? I have always operated under the idea that it does not stipulate this. Can you link the document so I can see? Because I've asked a lot of people about this, and this is the first anyone has said you can't change it once it is legally imported.

The document I quoted was dealing with importation rules, it does not deal with rules in regards to what you do with the vehicle after importation.
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  #38  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Yup it's the same truck. It's a puma conversion. An 88 that's been rebuilt.

Move along, nothing to see here.
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  #39  
Old August 25th, 2016, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Elbee View Post
Yup it's the same truck. It's a puma conversion. An 88 that's been rebuilt.

Move along, nothing to see here.
Unless it was converted in Canada. If that happened, you could have trouble in the future with customs.
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  #40  
Old August 25th, 2016, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RBBailey View Post
Where does it stipulate this? I have always operated under the idea that it does not stipulate this. Can you link the document so I can see? Because I've asked a lot of people about this, and this is the first anyone has said you can't change it once it is legally imported.

The document I quoted was dealing with importation rules, it does not deal with rules in regards to what you do with the vehicle after importation.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production.../420b10027.pdf
Quote:
Exemption for Non-U.S. Version Vehicles 21 Years Old or Older
The vehicle is 21 OP years old or older and in original unmodified configuration.
Requirements:
....
Restrictions:
● The vehicle must be in its original unmodified configuration.
● Vehicles at least 21 years old with replacement engines are not eligible for this exemption
unless they contain equivalent or newer EPA certified engines and emission control
systems.
That is the technical legal side. As mentioned, it would never be enforced with a change after import as that can or worms is too large.
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