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  #21  
Old December 18th, 2012, 09:38 AM
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What will be the trigger for flagging a thread as hot - anything that Neil posts in??

Kidding aside, one of the best things about this site is that people are able to respectfully (for the most part) voice their opinions - it's just a shame that those who apparently do not even participate in these discussions must PM you privately and drive the direction of the forum overall. Honestly guys, it appears that we won't actually be losing anything here by having a thread flagged as hot - these individuals who have probably in the past never contributed to the discussions will probably continue to not participate in them.

What these flags SHOULD NOT be is a way for "hot" discussions to be somehow squelched or suppressed as that would be a real shame. Access to them should be the same, and an "OPT OUT" as opposed to an "OPT IN" should probably be the direction on this. For these discussions to be somehow invisible to those who may likely want to participate would really not be ideal. Sure, it's not "rover" content, but it is community content, and this forum is more than just rover-related technical discussions.
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  #22  
Old December 18th, 2012, 09:43 AM
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Andy-
Do you realize that a quarter of the active members on this board have the individual skill set that if applied could topple a small goverment! Skill learned in service to your country! They are responsible to self govern.
You know I never really thought about this but your right, we probably have enough on here to build a company sized element at least


Honestly, we're adults here. If you can't take reading what you see here on D-90 you probably shouldn't be on the internet.
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  #23  
Old December 18th, 2012, 09:48 AM
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This isn't Russia. Is this Russia, Danny? This isn't Russia.
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  #24  
Old December 18th, 2012, 09:58 AM
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I have to say. With all due respect. This is retarded.

If people don't want to view a thread. They won't click it.

As for the gun sales. That's why they have laws in place. It's not d-90s job to regulate that, it's the federal and state governments. That being said I don't think you have any criminals here selling guns illegally. All of the gun enthusiast here are probably the most upstanding people on this site.
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  #25  
Old December 18th, 2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
What will be the trigger for flagging a thread as hot?
We will have three tags for this; politics, religion and guns. If a discussion is about one of these topics we will tag it accordingly. If a discussion is specifically about a Rover related topic such as gun mounts for their Defender or import laws related to vehicles then it won't be tagged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Honestly guys, it appears that we won't actually be losing anything here by having a thread flagged as hot - these individuals who have probably in the past never contributed to the discussions will probably continue to not participate in them.
Josh is mostly correct here. Our intent is to find a way to allow everyone to continue chatting just like you have in the past but if you want to see these discussions you simply have to opt-in which will take just a few clicks.

The one exception to "won't actually be losing anything" is prohibiting guns for sale. This decision was not related to the tragedy last week but was driven by potential legal liability after reading a case of a lawsuit filed last week. When analyzing how many of these discussions we had, there was a little more then a dozen n the past year out of 6,500+ total discussions. Of which, there was only a handful of sellers.
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  #26  
Old December 18th, 2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy R View Post
The one exception to "won't actually be losing anything" is prohibiting guns for sale. This decision was not related to the tragedy last week but was driven by potential legal liability after reading a case of a lawsuit filed last week. When analyzing how many of these discussions we had, there was a little more then a dozen n the past year out of 6,500+ total discussions. Of which, there was only a handful of sellers.
What about parts as someone else had inquired about?
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  #27  
Old December 18th, 2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyRover View Post
Honestly, we're adults here. If you can't take reading what you see here on D-90 you probably shouldn't be on the internet.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Access to them should be the same, and an "OPT OUT" as opposed to an "OPT IN" should probably be the direction on this.
There already is an "OPT OUT", its the "back" button on the top of your web browser. If someone reads something that offends their delicate sensibilities in a particular thread, they do have the option of not returning to that thread again.
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  #28  
Old December 18th, 2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
THis is classic reactionary behavior after last weeks shooting.
Guys - it is a changing world. Hot off the press.

Cerberus to Sell Gunmaker Freedom After School Massacre

Cerberus Capital Management LP, the New York-based investment firm that owns the largest U.S. gunmaker, will put the company up for sale, acting four days after one of its rifles was used in the Connecticut school shootings that left 26 people dead, including 20 six- and seven- year-olds.

Cerberus said it will seek to sell Freedom Group Inc. just hours after California Treasurer Bill Lockyer said he’ll propose that the state’s public pension funds, the two largest in the U.S., divest investments in firearm manufacturers that make guns prohibited under state law. The firm’s announcement followed a day in which the White House reiterated President Barack Obama’s support for a new ban on assault weapons and lawmakers called for stricter gun-control laws.

“This decision allows us to meet our obligations to the investors whose interests we are entrusted to protect without being drawn into the national debate” on gun control, Cerberus said in a statement issued just after midnight in New York.

The firm made its initial firearms investment in 2006, when it bought the maker of the Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle, the weapon authorities say Adam Lanza used on his Dec. 14 rampage at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, before killing himself. Cerberus expanded through acquisitions, including the purchase of Remington Arms Co. in 2007, and named the business Freedom Group.

Shares Slump Freedom Group is the nation’s biggest manufacturer of guns and ammunition, with nine plants and 3,100 employees. Smith & Wesson Holding Corp. (SWHC) and Sturm Ruger & Co., which make similar military-style weapons, fell for a third day in New York trading as investors shunned firearms makers.

Smith and Wesson slumped 9.4 percent at 9:35 a.m. in New York, bringing its decline in the past three trading sessions to 13 percent. Sturm Ruger slid 7.5 percent today, bringing losses to 10 percent during the same period.

Cerberus, founded by former Drexel Burnham Lambert trader Stephen Feinberg in 1992, oversees about $20 billion in assets, including private equity and hedge funds. It once owned Chrysler Corp.

“Our role is to make investments on behalf of our clients who are comprised of the pension plans of firemen, teachers, policemen and other municipal workers and unions, endowments, and other institutions and individuals,” Cerberus said in the statement. “It is not our role to take positions, or attempt to shape or influence the gun-control policy debate. That is the job of our federal and state legislators.”
Reviewing Investments The California State Teachers’ Retirement System, which has $751 million overseen by Cerberus, said yesterday it’s reviewing the investment, Ricardo Duran, a spokesman for the public pension fund manager, said in an e-mail. Calsters, with $154.8 billion in assets as of Oct. 31, is the second-largest U.S. pension fund. The largest is the California Public Employees’ Retirement System, with $241 billion.

While Cerberus filed to take the Freedom Group public in October 2009, it pulled the offering in April 2011 after the gun market slowed and Freedom Group Chief Executive Officer Theodore Torbeck resigned.

The business has picked up. The company, based in Madison, North Carolina, reported sales of $677 million this year through Sept. 30, an increase of 20 percent from the same period in 2011, according to a Nov. 15 filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Adjusted earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization rose 43 percent to $118 million.

“In many areas, the market is expanding quicker than the industry can increase production,” Freedom Group said in the filing. “Our company is experiencing strong demand for modern sporting firearms and handguns.”

Growth areas include the U.S. government, military and law enforcement, the company said.

Younger Shooters
About 60 percent of the company’s revenue this year derived from the sale of firearms, including sporting shotguns, rifles, handguns and guns that can be modified. The remainder came from ammunition and reloading components, as well as accessories, apparel and other shooting products, according to the filing.

“We believe the industry is also experiencing trends toward increased recreational and shooting sports and home defense,” Freedom Group said. “Further, we believe the adoption of the modern sporting rifle has led to increased long- term growth in the long gun market while attracting a younger generation of shooters.”

The Newtown massacre was the deadliest in the U.S. since 33 people died in a 2007 rampage at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia.
Obama met yesterday with Vice President Joe Biden, senior aides and Cabinet members including Attorney General Eric Holder to discuss ways to respond to the tragedy, according to a White House official with knowledge of the session.

Feinstein, Lautenberg
“The president’s position on the assault weapons ban hasn’t changed,” White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters. “He still supports its re-enactment.”

U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat, said she’ll introduce in the new Congress convening in January legislation to reinstate a federal ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004. Senator Frank Lautenberg, a New Jersey Democrat, said he plans to reintroduce his bill banning high- capacity gun magazines, which were used in several shootings, including at Sandy Hook elementary.

Changes in firearm regulations could “materially adversely” affect Freedom Group by restricting the types of guns it can make or sell, or by adding costs to those processes, the company said in its filing.

Freedom Group had long-term debt of $647 million as of Sept. 30. In January, it bought Para USA Inc., the Pineville, North Carolina-based handgun maker, for $5 million.

“Regulatory proposals, even if never enacted, may affect firearms or ammunition sales as a result of consumer perceptions,” said Freedom Group.

To contact the reporter on this story: Devin Banerjee in New York at dbanerjee2@bloomberg.net
To contact the editor responsible for this story: Christian Baumgaertel at cbaumgaertel@bloomberg.net
Find out more about Bloomberg for iPhone: http://m.bloomberg.com/iphone/



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  #29  
Old December 18th, 2012, 10:42 AM
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found on Fox

The prospect of a renewed assault weapons ban in the wake of the Connecticut school massacre has set of a round of buying, as thousands of Americans head to their local gun store to secure the popular AR-15 -- the model used by the school gunman -- before potential government prohibitions on their purchase.
They are also buying the .223 ammunition used by the AR-15 and the type of high-capacity magazines covered under the last federal assault weapons ban, which Congress let expire without renewing.
  • The Colorado Bureau of Investigation says it set a new record for single-day background check submittals this past weekend.
  • In San Diego, Northwest Armory gun store owner Karl Durkheimer said Saturday "was the biggest day we've seen in 20 years. Sunday will probably eclipse that."
  • In southwest Ohio, from dawn to dusk a Cincinnati gun show had a line of 400 waiting to get in, said Joe Eaton of the Buckeye Firearms Association.
"Sales were through the roof on Saturday," said Eaton. "People were buying everything they could out of fear the president would try to ban certain guns and high-capacity magazines."
The deluge of buyers had officials working overtime. Background checks that normally took 15 minutes in California took more than four hours, Durkheimer said. In Colorado, background checks that normally take minutes turned into wait times of more than 12 hours, said CBI spokeswoman Susan Medina.
"We had to call in extra staff," Medina said. "The wait times were high."
The CBI says it processed more than 4,200 background checks on Saturday, the day after the Newtown, Conn., shooting. That surpassed the previous high of 4,028. Nationwide, FBI data shows 16.4 million background checks were run in 2011. An agency spokesman said Monday it did not keep daily numbers and would not have figures for December until early January.
The Connecticut gunman, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, killed his mother before taking her car and her rifle and two handguns and driving to the Sandy Hook Elementary School. There he killed 20 children and six adults before taking his own life.
In the aftermath of the tragedy, Democratic lawmakers have argued there is a need for new gun measures, and President Obama has seemed to move in that direction without voicing support for specific legislation.
Gun owners aren't just afraid of losing their right to buy certain guns. Jeff Serdy, owner of AJI Sporting Goods in Apache Junction, Ariz., said his buyers were buying ammunition.
"I am selling a ton of ammunition," Serdy said. "My people figure it is easier for the president to ban ammunition sales than to get a gun bill through Congress."
Other countries have tried limiting the sale of ammunition as an easier alternative to banning guns. Mexico for example, bans any "military cartridge." In the U.S., the AR-15 and M-16 ammunition use the same bullet, the .223 and NATO 5.56 mm round.
Serdy said he was out of the cheaper $700 to $800 versions of the AR-15 but still had some priced at $1100 and up.
The AR-15 is the civilian version of the military's M-16 and M-4. In surveys, about 50 percent of buyers say they own AR-15s for target practice; 30 percent for hunting and the rest for personal protection. Despite often being called a fringe gun by critics, the AR-15 is the most popular gun sold in the US today, according to gun dealers. Roughly 220,000 were sold in 2010, after peaking at more than 300,000 immediately following Obama's election.
Sen. Diane Feinstein said Monday she will introduce a new assault weapons bill in January to stop the sale of more than 100 types of assault weapons.
"On the first day of the new Congress, I intend to introduce a bill stopping the sale, transfer, importation and manufacturing of assault weapons as well as large ammunition magazines, strips and drums that hold more than 10 rounds," Feinstein said. "I am in the process of gathering support for the bill in the Senate and House."
The previous assault weapons ban lasted from 1994 through 2004. It defined an assault weapon as any gun that was:
- semi automatic, meaning one round is fired per each pull of the trigger
- used a detachable magazine
And featured any two of the following attributes:
- a folding or telescopic stock
- a pistol grip
- a bayonet mount
- a flash suppressor
- a grenade launcher
While the weapons look menacing, many gun advocates say they are no more deadly than some other guns that use a larger and heavier bullet. And since they are semi-automatic, they should not be called or confused with the fully automatic military version. Nor should a gun used by millions be outlawed because of the actions of a mentally ill young man.
Critics however say these high-power weapons, capable of firing multiple rounds quickly, are too dangerous, since their high velocity rounds can pierce most body armor and
their magazines allow for mass shootings.
Yet, statistics show, unlike handguns or shotguns, rifles account for only a fraction of homicides in the United States. Of 12,664 murder victims last year, only 323 were killed with rifles, according to the FBI.
Both the Paducah, Ky., and Columbine, Colo., mass school killings occurred during the 10-year ban. In Paducah, the killer used a .22 caliber long rifle, 12 gauge pump-action shotgun and a Ruger MK II .22-caliber pistol.
In Columbine, the shooters used 99 explosive devices, a 12 gauge pump action shotgun. Hi-Point 995 Carbine 9 mm carbine, a 9 mm Intratec TEC-9 semi-automatic handgun, and a 12-gauge Stevens 311D double-barreled sawed-off shotgun.
In 2007, the Virginia Tech shooter used a Glock and Walther handgun to kill 32 and wounded 17.
More recently, AR-15s were used in the Colorado movie theater shooting, one last week in a Portland, Ore. mall and in the Newton elementary massacre.
Even investors apparently believe this time Congress may act, fearing the long-term outlook is worse than a short-term sales bounce. Share prices for gun makers like Strum Ruger, Smith and Wesson and were down 4 to 8 percent the last two business days.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz2FQ1mSAWK
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  #30  
Old December 18th, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Cerberus is selling because they will have short term profits and don't want the long term risk of a ban. I think it is ironic that a website where there are a lot of plainly illegal vehicles is banning the sale of completely legal guns. If you are concerned about liability, I would be happy to put together some disclaimers for you.

This one if from PAFOA:

"PAFOA provides space for this marketplace for non-prohibited persons to offer to sell or buy legal firearms with other non-prohibited persons. It is the responsibility of every seller and every buyer to comply with all state and federal laws, which includes verifying the buyer's state of residence, refusing sales to prohibited persons, and additional requirements. If you're not sure of the laws, find out. For maximum safety, we suggest doing all transfers of advertised guns through a Federal Firearms Licensee or a Sheriff; this is mandatory for handguns, and mandatory for sales to out-of-state residents, and it’s the only way you can get a PICS check done.

Requiring that your buyer show you a current PA License to Carry Firearms may provide some assurance that the buyer is not prohibited, but this is not foolproof. Being a registered user or someone that you've met personally is zero assurance of being non-prohibited for firearms possession.

Certain firearms, parts & accessories are also regulated by the National Firearms Act, so if you're not sure, do the research.

If you see an ad that you believe violates applicable laws, or if you believe you've been solicited to do an unlawful act, notify site administrators."




I WELCOME OUR COPRORATE OVERLORD.

PS you buy a D90 yet Andy?
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  #31  
Old December 18th, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Very disappointing. Will you also be banning the sale of sodas larger than 16 oz?
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  #32  
Old December 18th, 2012, 11:30 AM
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Well, I am chiming in since I am one of those SELLERS of Firearms.

Janet send me an nice PM stating what Andy posted on the opening of this thread.

I couldn't agree more with Jonathan, that the the Leadership Team has NO clue as what it takes to transfer a firearm and who is responsible for such transaction.

Furthermore, some of the Firearms owned by many members in here can't be even loaned without the presence of the owner ( read CLASS III / NFA Class items ).

The BATFE will come after my ass ( as a seller ) before it goes after the buyer and DON'T FEEL TOO IMPORTANT, because D-90 ain't responsible for my actions.

Comparing eBay and CL for banning Firearms sales is pathetic as the ownership of said sites if 100% liberal Anti guns ( but I am sure will be the first ones calling for help shall they find themselves in a pickle if the Zombies ever rise.

Many Team Members have served in this Armed Forces or others, their record is more scrutinized than the average Citizen, and perhaps the Leadership Team of D-90 could remove their heads out of their own butt and realize that only an outstanding Citizen / Gun Owner will offer for sale certain kind of weapons on a forum as there record of said offering reaches departments in the government in a jiff.

Actually many of the threads regarding firearms have been educational to many ( on both sides of the spectrum ) and adding filters is useless.

FINALLY, it will show more class not to attack other websites like DISCOWEB, because I can tell you that the NAME CALLING " WHINING applies here as well ( as you clearly stated it " some members concerns ...".
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  #33  
Old December 18th, 2012, 11:33 AM
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The Internet won't remain the "wild wild west" for ever.... Regulation will happen in some form or another. Sometimes it's bad; sometimes it's good.

I find it funny that a lot of people just say "hit the back button". That is true.

I also think it's not an issue to click a couple other buttons, if you really want to participate in a discussion. You're already clickin and typing anyhow. Heck, you can even setup a "macro/keyboard shortcuts" to do it all for you.

The moderators have a tough job... give them some slack. I'm sure this isn't his only board.
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  #34  
Old December 18th, 2012, 11:42 AM
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Well if liability is the concern then I propose the following additions:

- Ban the sale of non-NAS trucks
- Ban the sale of non-OEM parts
- Ban the sale of any used parts
- Ban the sale of any tool or instrument that could be used as a weapon. You could use the TSA carry-on rules as a guide. If you can't take it on an airplane, then you can't sell it on here.

Shall I keep going?
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  #35  
Old December 18th, 2012, 11:47 AM
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Also, you taking action to regulate the sale of certain items makes it more likely that some one sues you when they get scammed.
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  #36  
Old December 18th, 2012, 11:54 AM
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I'm off to Guns and Rovers...
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  #37  
Old December 18th, 2012, 12:07 PM
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What about parts as someone else had inquired about?
It's my understanding that parts don't have the same laws regulating their sale and would thus be okay. They would be tagged and thus require opt-in to view.
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  #38  
Old December 18th, 2012, 12:39 PM
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It's my understanding that parts don't have the same laws regulating their sale and would thus be okay. They would be tagged and thus require opt-in to view.
Okay, then please put my gun parts thread back.

And FYI, this is my 5,000 post if anyone cares . My where has all the time gone...
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  #39  
Old December 18th, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
You clearly have no idea the legalities of buying/selling firearms. The firearms listed for sale, including mine were 100% legal and all transfers occurred within Federal and State guidelines.

I consider these guys a tight group of Rover friends, and thus we buy/sell sometimes "dangerous" stuff. Scary. The liability rests on our shoulders, not yours.
I think this is the point. The laws are different in many states and frankly websites are being found culpable if there's ever a problem. While you may consider this a closed and tight knit group, anyone can register and post here and for that matter anyone can read. It's not an action aimed specifically at you but it's hard to have an exclusion for just the safe and legal sellers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revtor View Post
I agree with what you guys are saying, people should just not click on topics they don't want to see or read about. It should be so simple right? Well we all know that it takes one whiner to set off an avalanche of bullshit ...
One whiner is an inaccurate characterization. There has been ongoing concern by a number of members who come here to discuss D-90s. There are lots of great venues for weapons related content but not so many for D-90s.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyRover View Post

Honestly, we're adults here. If you can't take reading what you see here on D-90 you probably shouldn't be on the internet.
While you may be entirely comfortable with every topic, many are not or more specifically, the rancor that can be associated with contentious topics. D-90 members share a common interest in rigs but have widely varying interests and lifestyles. Members run the gamut from far right of center to far left. They are gay, straight, atheist or not and most check in here to discuss d-90s. Let's focusing on the stuff we share in common rather than that we don't.
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  #40  
Old December 18th, 2012, 01:12 PM
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They are gay, straight, atheist or not and most check in here to discuss d-90s. Let's focusing on the stuff we share in common rather than that we don't.

You forgot Bi, wouldn't want to leave the undecided vote out...



Yes and as an adult that doesn't need to have my hand held, I stop reading things that I don't like/bother me and move on. I can make decisions for myself I'm a big boy. Going with that logic I don't need to be comfortable with everything.
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