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  #21  
Old March 30th, 2013, 01:54 PM
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Do you have reason to believe that approval was applied for ? All information I have ever seen indicated LRNA decided to never submit any of the diesels for approval because that was not "what their customers wanted"
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  #22  
Old March 30th, 2013, 02:05 PM
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Yes, that is the rumor - that they were tested and passed.





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  #23  
Old March 30th, 2013, 03:42 PM
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This is the Indiana Jones thread ... I have treasure map that shows the location of the certificates that have been hidden away by numerous presidents fearful of anyone getting more that 25mpg.

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  #24  
Old March 30th, 2013, 03:50 PM
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The motion that the engines will ne "legal" once they are 21yrs old is also false. This means cars 21yts old are exempt. It does not mean you can swap a 21 yr old motor into your 95 defender.

------ Follow up post added March 30th, 2013 03:54 PM ------

Technically the "legal" merc motor (used in its "federalized" configuration) is only legal in a car that is older than it.
Also, "federalized" is a motor in a certain approved configuration. The EPA does not give blanket approval to a motor itself.
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  #25  
Old March 30th, 2013, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb-memphis View Post
Yes, that is the rumor - that they were tested and passed.





jeff
Any clue what year they did the testing?
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  #26  
Old March 30th, 2013, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mongosd2 View Post

Any clue what year they did the testing?
It's on the small print on my map ...
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  #27  
Old March 30th, 2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
It's on the small print on my map ...
Not helpful.
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  #28  
Old March 30th, 2013, 04:07 PM
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So your take is that a 21yr old VEHICLE is itself exempt from EPA rules and therefore can have any engine you like in it? Even if that engine is otherwise non-approved? That's a very interesting take on the rules and I would be interested in hearing if that is correct? Does anybody know? That wouldn't of course affect the import discussion as that's a different set of rules that's in play but it might mean you could fit something else once its here maybe if its true?

On the engine, my understanding is the same as yours. It's not the engine itself its the total configuration. That is to say the engine and ALL its associated emissions equipment as fitted to the VEHICLE that received the approval. If you take all that (engine and emissions stuff) and put it in another vehicle then the other vehicle cannot be newer than the approved vehicle. Same age or older is OK. That's for vehicles under 21yrs of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by junkyddog11 View Post
The motion that the engines will ne "legal" once they are 21yrs old is also false. This means cars 21yts old are exempt. It does not mean you can swap a 21 yr old motor into your 95 defender.

------ Follow up post added March 30th, 2013 03:54 PM ------

Technically the "legal" merc motor (used in its "federalized" configuration) is only legal in a car that is older than it.
Also, "federalized" is a motor in a certain approved configuration. The EPA does not give blanket approval to a motor itself.
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  #29  
Old March 30th, 2013, 04:20 PM
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Upon reading the 21 year rule, it has to do with IMPORTATION...so let's leave that one alone. The rules were written to keep things out of the country and really only apply in that context seemingly. My read on this is that you can import a 21 year car with its original engine or something same or newer...so if a car is 21yo from the UK and had a 300tdi in it 21 years ago, no problem. My read. I am not a lawyer. So, in 2016, that will be allowed...then the 25y rule seems to trump things so you need to really wait to 2020 for a ROW 300tdi to be legal to import it as such by the EPA. It seems silly that one place is 21 and the other place is 25 and Canada has not seemingly imploded with a 15y rule in place....silly. That is for another thread please.



My real question remains: was the 300tdi tested and federalized by LR (or whomever) but not chosen for use for whatever reason? That would be a very interesting bit of data to nail down indeed in my book.
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  #30  
Old March 30th, 2013, 04:27 PM
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So to be totally legal if someone wanted to put in a motor into a 1995 NAS 90 that motor and it's associated hardware would need to be from a 1996 or newer vehicle? Would a 4.6 swap need to be updated to OBD2? And a LR diesel would have to be a 1996 300 (or newer) and that couldn't get done until 2016?
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  #31  
Old March 30th, 2013, 04:52 PM
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Same year or newer, or in the 4.6 its the same config anyway so non issue.
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  #32  
Old March 30th, 2013, 04:58 PM
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I think the swap for an NAS in the country is governed by local (state) law where it was/is done. The years thing is IMPORTATION.

But, back to the question at hand: were 300 tdi's tested and federalized at some point?

Jeff
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  #33  
Old March 30th, 2013, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junkyddog11 View Post
Same year or newer, or in the 4.6 its the same config anyway so non issue.
Not quite true to my understanding Matt. 4.6 is a GEMS or BOSCH motor so to be 100% true to the rules they would need to retrofit the management system and all its associated BS to the earlier truck.

Not that anybody is going to care of course on that one so it really is a non-issue in practicality.
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  #34  
Old March 30th, 2013, 06:19 PM
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By the same configuration I meant the existing engine management system would be used. Therefore, not an issue.
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  #35  
Old March 30th, 2013, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb-memphis View Post
I think the swap for an NAS in the country is governed by local (state) law where it was/is done. The years thing is IMPORTATION.

But, back to the question at hand: were 300 tdi's tested and federalized at some point?

Jeff

The federalization question is now being investigated on a couple of fronts I believe.

In the mean time, Matt's reading of the 21yr EPA exemption rules is possibly of some interest to you if you are considering fitting a 300TDi I think?

You cant import the truck with a 300TDi already in it (EPA form 3520-1 Code E specifically excludes that).
You cant import the engine itself (EPA Form 3520-21 excludes that).

But assuming the engine is already here and you have a 21yr old or older truck (so no NAS trucks yet) then Matt's take on the rules suggests that it might be legal to fit it?

Very interested to hear if that is true.

------ Follow up post added March 30th, 2013 03:24 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by junkyddog11 View Post
By the same configuration I meant the existing engine management system would be used. Therefore, not an issue.
He mentioned a 95 which of course has the Lucas 14CUX so he would have to retrofit the GEMS/BOSCH set up to the 95 truck. 97 would not have the same issues of course.
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  #36  
Old March 30th, 2013, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don View Post
And a LR diesel would have to be a 1996 300 (or newer) and that couldn't get done until 2016?
Don, that's raises a question that has been interesting me as well. Assume no other issues of legality for a minute and you have an electronic version of a later LR diesel engine fitted to a US 96 or newer OBD II truck. You turn up to a US Testing station with it and plug it in, will it pass?

My understanding is these engines run on ECUs which are EOBD which is the Euro version. If you plug one of them in to a US Federal test set up will it still pass or will it recognize it as a foreign set up?
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  #37  
Old March 30th, 2013, 07:17 PM
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Please stay on topic: was the 300tdi federalized and when was is first used.

RE: importation/OBD/installation/swap issues...please take to/start another thread.

TIA
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  #38  
Old March 30th, 2013, 07:36 PM
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Your when 1st used question I think was answered above wasn't it? March 94 or thereabouts? The 300TDi LR Manual states 95 Model year so that would about match.

I know of 1 person who hasn't posted and see at least 1 who posted above who are researching the federalization question, Since its Saturday I doubt you will get much further on those until next week unless somebody here already knows the answer or can look it up in Microcat or something for you?


That said the published list of federalized engines already posted above (without the 300TDi on it) going back to the mid-70s suggests that there was no completed federalization of the motor for the US. If that is incorrect then hopefully we will learn more next week?
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  #39  
Old March 30th, 2013, 07:42 PM
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Thanks. No offense meant to anyone.
Just wanted to keep this issue short so as not to get the search engines all over this like the other thread regarding the seizures....
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  #40  
Old March 30th, 2013, 07:44 PM
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None taken but your question posed some other interesting questions as offshoots. Since the federalization one will probably have to wait until next week then in the interim some of the other interesting stuff is getting discussed I guess.

I don't think you're going to get the answer you want on the fed question based on it not being on the list already posted. But you never know.

Edit - Guess you edited while I was typing but no worries. I think you've opened a can of worms with many people interested in the issues so its going to be tough to keep it in check. The date of introduction and the fed issue are very key questions and answers are going to be important to some people no doubt.
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