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  #61  
Old October 16th, 2013, 01:05 PM
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Party of individual responsibility...unless it's something they don't like, in which case they bear no responsibility!
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  #62  
Old October 16th, 2013, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
If we all got along (which is how congress deals with issues, agree to do nothing now and figure it out later) we will still go broke. Regardless of how well intentioned these programs are (medicare, SS etc) they aren't sustainable. ACA is the same. It isn't sustainable. It was passed as being budget neutral(even then, it was 'new math') but was immediately modified so that it was upside down. At what point will we ever actually pay the debt down? Hell with all the the sequester drama about not increasing spending as much as was wanted (it wasn't actually a cut) we wont get anywhere. Bottom line, e need to scale back programs/benifits, not ad more.

As for rhetoric and narrative, both sides are guilty, but I think the left has set the gold standard for laying it on think for the less intelligent.

You seem to mockingly throw tyranny out alot. What is your solution, or do you just like to argue?

-Jeff
So basically none of this is sustainable, and therefore we should immediately cut it severely is what I'm hearing? The problem is the small gov't folks don't actually understand what small gov't is or looks like so the solutions they propose aren't supportable, feasible, or acceptable (three pre-conditions for a course of action). The notion that this country's rise to power was simply because of individual initiative and a small government is blatant historical revisionism.

I don't think I understand your reference about tyranny-I mock a lot of the commentary about it because I think it's overblown rhetoric. Phrased another way I don't think many people in the US have the faintest notion about of what tyranny is actually like so it amuses me to no end when the far right screams about tyranny being just around the corner.

I'd also offer that in order to get past the debt you've gotta do things like not choose elective wars that cost Trillions of dollars (that you didn't raise revenue to pay for) so blaming the left for setting the gold standard of entitlement is also a bit of a hypocrisy-but these days its really hard to find a Republican that supported that 8 years, somehow they've all re-cast themselves as small gov't types.

I also think the notion that the left is speaking to the less intelligent while the right is the benefactor of the informed is one of the most arrogant things that underlies the current conversation about politics today.

The solution will have to be incremental, and it likely has to involve not only cuts but also changing (i.e. raising but that's liberal code) the revenue structure while expanding the country's GDP. Non-liberal things like energy independence, even to the detriment of the environment in certain arenas, will help a great deal. All of those are serious discussions that can't be had until people put aside the venom.
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  #63  
Old October 16th, 2013, 03:31 PM
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Ray, head into the private sector and open a business, you will then know what tyranny is, soft though it may be but tyranny none the less. At what point does it turn hard? When you run afowl of the tyrant.

I posed a question to my good friend in DC, Phil Attey, who is a political operative/fund raiser for the DNC going back to the first Clinton campagin. He is also a community organizer, militant gay activist and admitted socialist. He is a good friend of mine as well and we get together as often as we can for beers and bullshit. When I asked him point blank what the Government will do when (not if) I refuse to submit to government health care, his reply was chilling. The plan is to prevent anyone from operating in society who does not submit. No driving license, no job because no Soc Sec card, etc, etc. If that is not tyranny then I can't find the other definition. I also find it amusing that your vigorus opposition the the Tea Party or anyone who would dare seek to set limits (fiscal or otherwise) on the government and ruling class in DC is almost identical to my good friend Phil.
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  #64  
Old October 16th, 2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
Ray, head into the private sector and open a business, you will then know what tyranny is, soft though it may be but tyranny none the less. At what point does it turn hard? When you run afowl of the tyrant.

I posed a question to my good friend in DC, Phil Attey, who is a political operative/fund raiser for the DNC going back to the first Clinton campagin. He is also a community organizer, militant gay activist and admitted socialist. He is a good friend of mine as well and we get together as often as we can for beers and bullshit. When I asked him point blank what the Government will do when (not if) I refuse to submit to government health care, his reply was chilling. The plan is to prevent anyone from operating in society who does not submit. No driving license, no job because no Soc Sec card, etc, etc. If that is not tyranny then I can't find the other definition. I also find it amusing that your vigorus opposition the the Tea Party or anyone who would dare seek to set limits (fiscal or otherwise) on the government and ruling class in DC is almost identical to my good friend Phil.
Thank goodness we have such reliable source as your mate Phil who was providing this official statement of what would happen....
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  #65  
Old October 16th, 2013, 03:49 PM
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Jason, are you mocking my gay friend?
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  #66  
Old October 16th, 2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
The first 3 paragraphs are venomous rhetoric (as you put it) and jumping to many conclusions. I said nothing about immediately or severely cutting, but we do need to at least be honest and at least have a flat budget, if not a receding budget to pay the debt down.

Tyranny doesn't have to be absolute to exist. It comes in small doses as well. Mocking only polarizes the discussion.

I wouldn't say the the right was the benefactor of the informed, but they suck with their narrative because they don't dumb it down nearly as well as the left. I think we are where we are because the left are master politicians, the right are amateurs.

All bullshit aside, I completely agree with your last paragraph! We should go for beers.

-Jeff
I'm down for beers anytime-Raub and I managed to have quite a few and have a great time. I will admit that I find tremendous amusement at being a de facto liberal on this forum, it certainly makes for good conversation.
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------ Follow up post added October 16th, 2013 03:56 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
Ray, head into the private sector and open a business, you will then know what tyranny is, soft though it may be but tyranny none the less. At what point does it turn hard? When you run afowl of the tyrant.

I posed a question to my good friend in DC, Phil Attey, who is a political operative/fund raiser for the DNC going back to the first Clinton campagin. He is also a community organizer, militant gay activist and admitted socialist. He is a good friend of mine as well and we get together as often as we can for beers and bullshit. When I asked him point blank what the Government will do when (not if) I refuse to submit to government health care, his reply was chilling. The plan is to prevent anyone from operating in society who does not submit. No driving license, no job because no Soc Sec card, etc, etc. If that is not tyranny then I can't find the other definition. I also find it amusing that your vigorus opposition the the Tea Party or anyone who would dare seek to set limits (fiscal or otherwise) on the government and ruling class in DC is almost identical to my good friend Phil.
I think your friend Phil has an overblown sense of what he-and those like him-can accomplish as the government. Easy to advocate for that as a free agent standing on the outside as a lobbyist/fund raiser/etc. Once actually forced to perform such functions they'll quickly find they are seeking to accomplish the impossible.

Have faith in government inefficiency...if you bank on it, you'll likely be right almost all the time!
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  #67  
Old October 16th, 2013, 04:06 PM
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Ray methinks you are not the "liberal" you pretend to be, you just love arguing the position. I, on the other hand, consider myself a Classic Liberal. Going to URE this weekend, come on down!
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  #68  
Old October 16th, 2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
Jason, are you mocking my gay friend?
I'm mocking you for repeating stories told by drunks in bars ...
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  #69  
Old October 16th, 2013, 04:43 PM
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Haha, you mean militant gay, socialist drunks! I'm not bettin' against them, they'er in charge now!
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  #70  
Old October 16th, 2013, 04:49 PM
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I'm mocking you for repeating stories told by drunks in bars ...

Like all those republicans before they shut down the govt? It really does seem as if Boner the highest ranking Republican has little or no control over House republicans.
What a mess!
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/201...nd_317938.html
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  #71  
Old October 16th, 2013, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 61rover View Post
Our HSA plan went up 4% and our PPO went up 23%. Company also said the PPO will end after this year.

I've spent the last three years helping states implement the ACA. The ACA is nothing but redistribution of income. There is NOTHING in the law that will reduce healthcare costs. Nada, zip, zero. The last couple of years have all been about getting insurance for the 'uninsured'. What everyone fails to see is that all these newly insured are going to start consuming services like someonelse is paying for it which is true for most.

So the next crisis will be about cost of care, which is going to skyrocket as 40 million more people start getting treatment and drugs. Then the rationing will have to start.

The ACA was designed from the beginning to fail. It's a step on the path to single payer. It puts everyone into private insurance then creates a structure where the insurance companies can't succeed. The only answer when that crisis comes is single payer. That's the end goal.
Well said, 61Rover. I agree completely and have also been involved in the state ACA implementation and exchange development and echo the concerns about the administration's refusal to address cost drivers. Not to mention the new $100 Billion Health Insurance Tax assessed on insurers that will inevitably be passed along to employers and then employees. BTW, I just returned from your market today after hosting multiple employer focus groups. The results are alarming as there is very little comprehension about what is required and how employers will comply - and your state (CO) is ahead of most in terms of their exchange readiness.
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  #72  
Old November 14th, 2013, 10:40 PM
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SOOOO, I stopped watching the news after the President told the house he will not consider any change or delay in the implementation of the ACA on the eve of the govt shutdown. I think Pelozi was saying give it a chance or something.

I just started watching again and a little confused. Anyone care to catch me up?
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  #73  
Old November 14th, 2013, 11:05 PM
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SOOOO, I stopped watching the news after the President told the house he will not consider any change or delay in the implementation of the ACA on the eve of the govt shutdown. I think Pelozi was saying give it a chance or something.

I just started watching again and a little confused. Anyone care to catch me up?
5,000,000 people have had their health insurance cancelled.
100,000 people have allegedly signed up for insurance on the .gov website.
Obama's approval rating is at an all time low.
Today he said that the insurance companies "could" (not will) give people their old non Obamacare compliant health insurance plans back for one year.
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  #74  
Old November 14th, 2013, 11:09 PM
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Here's what you need to know.

ACA rollout has been a fiasco. The website doesn't work correctly and has serious security issues.

Rough number of how many people have signed up at the halfway point for enrollment(somebody correct me on this being about the halfway point if I'm wrong) are 100,000 people interested. Interested being they have purchased or at least selected and have sitting in their "checkout cart" a plan thru the state and federal exchanges. The estimated expected numbers by this point were 500,000 enrolled(not awaiting making a decision to purchase).

Somewhere between 3 million and 5 million people have reportedly received cancellation letters for their current health insurance despite assurances that if you like your healthcare you can keep it(these had been going on since 2010, the assurances that is).

Republicans are supposedly going to be coming out with legislation that will have a fix for the people getting kicked off their plans. The reason they were kicked off is poor implementation of the ACA that mandates essential health benefits on all coverage plans. These plans that people are being cancelled on didn't have some of the essential health benefits and the insurance companies were forced by the ACA to no longer offer those plans.

The end result is people that previously bought their own insurance on the individual market can no longer do so and are forced into buying individual insurance through the exchanges that are not working correctly. Who is to blame? The politicians are at fault on this one but are blaming insurance companies.

Ultimately the goal of the ACA was to attract people to the exchanges so the supporters of the ACA ultimately do not care that people were cancelled(just that they are going to the exchanges). For the exchanges to work supposedly 7 million people need to sign up through them. The idea of the exchanges kind of makes sense if you have enough people signing up; however, that won't happen because the shit is too expensive to ever attract enough people to sign up to make it work correctly. It's like a perpetual motion machine almost, or chicken and an egg problem.

Many people are angry at the purported lie/misleading that Obama and Democrats did with describing the ACA. Democrats facing re-election in 2014 are worried that they are going to get effed in the A by Republicans over health insurance cancellations. Obama administration is feeling pressure from the public, Dems, and Republicans to do something. Even Bill Clinton said Obama should stand by his word and fix the problem. Today Obama offered something resembling a solution or at least saying it would get solved but just temporarily into 2014(basically long enough to get Dems through re-elections).

The whole thing is a mess. And somehow people are trying to blame Bush.
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  #75  
Old November 14th, 2013, 11:09 PM
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States are already prohibiting the "non-compliant" plans too, even though Obama said the companies could continue.
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  #76  
Old November 14th, 2013, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
Today he said that the insurance companies "could" (not will) give people their old non Obamacare compliant health insurance plans back for one year.
Basically passing the buck off on the States and insurance companies. Because he says they can have their old "less desirable" plans but he's leaving it up to others to actually offer them again in a situation where it makes no sense for them to offer them. A very sly CYA tactic.

------ Follow up post added November 15th, 2013 12:11 AM ------

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States are already prohibiting the "non-compliant" plans too, even though Obama said the companies could continue.
Because they are saying it's too complicated to mess with anything now.
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  #77  
Old November 15th, 2013, 12:07 AM
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I got my cancellation notice last week from Blue Cross Blue Shield. A plan I have had for 10 years. I did however call Senator Bill Nelson Dem. Fl (who voted for the ACA after holding out for the proper bribe) with some qoestions. I asked if the Senator if:

A. He read the bill and knew that the outcome would be that his constituents would be lose their coverage and is pleased with these results?

B. He read the bill yet was surprised to find out that we would lose our health care coverage because he did not fully understand what he was reading and thus does not possess the ability to comprehend complex legislation and no longer has the capacity to represent the citizens of Florida.

C. Did not read the bill, and is derelict in his duties to his constituents by just voting as he was told to by the administration and not actually reading what was contained in the bill.

All I got was hemming and hawing by his little aid saying he is going to try and do somthing about it. Sorry, to little to late.
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  #78  
Old November 15th, 2013, 07:21 AM
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What a difference a month makes!
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  #79  
Old November 15th, 2013, 07:31 AM
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Has a government program ever existed that came in on schedule, was under budget and met expectations?


They shot for the moon and barely got off the launch pad. Strange that Romneycare came in to Mass and barely caused a ripple.

The Dodd Frank bill is another example of screwing up. It's goal of avoiding to big to fail has instead destroyed the minnows, and strengthened the Goliath's that caused the problems.

Right now nobody on either side of the aisle seems fit to or capable of governing.
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  #80  
Old November 15th, 2013, 07:42 AM
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Did Harry Reid at least sign up for the exchange to show support with president? Throw me a bone here?
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