2010 110 in the For Sale Section - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old February 19th, 2012, 03:17 AM
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2010 110 in the For Sale Section

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Originally Posted by 110 View Post
I am selling this 2010 Defender 110 it is titled as a earlier model. It is not a NAS truck so it is not legal for the roads here in the U.S. It is located on the West Coast and is for sale. 15,000 klms if you want info on the truck PM me. Sale with go through my attorney as I am not dealing with another headache. Truck is the real deal. Please do not ask questions stupid questions as I will not respond. Very nice fully loaded 110 that needs a good home. Thank You


From a post in the for sale section.

So let me get this straight. He's in the US and he's selling a truck that is in the US and that he states is incorrectly titled and cannot be legally driven on the road here in the US? Rumor has it that the price is $75k.

Who is he expecting to buy it?
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  #2  
Old February 19th, 2012, 03:26 AM
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No contact info makes it hard, but it looks like he's laid out the cards. Someone can either buy it as a parts truck or go their own route with running it on the road and the potential risk that entails.
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  #3  
Old February 19th, 2012, 03:30 AM
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$75k (if that is the price as he doesn't say in the post but mentions it in another thread) is a bit steep for a parts truck Jim.

He's close to the border (I think he's in LA) so I guess he could sell it into Mexico maybe? Not sure what a 2010 down there is worth.

Edit - Not knocking him as he was up front with his post, albeit a bit light on the details. Just not sure who he thinks is his market considering the title issues.

Would have thought he would be better off stripping it and selling the parts off to different buyers (so they don't land in the same boat). He'll still take a loss but less of one than not selling the truck to begin with and he's fully legit. Parts on that have got to be worth quite a bit of money if separated. Selling it complete even as a parts truck just moves the issue of the identity to a the new buyer.
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  #4  
Old February 19th, 2012, 09:08 AM
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I think if you import it into Mexico you would get stuck with 15% import duty as it was not manufactured in the US plus potentially VAT. $75k seems a bit expensive for a ranch truck. Might be worth throwing to a dealer for consignment down in TX.

Probably should just buy a 1985 galvanized chassis and do a frame swap so he can title it. I know that, at best, it's quasi-legal but better off than where he is now. I can only imagine the cost to do such a swap.
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  #5  
Old February 19th, 2012, 10:12 AM
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Ignorant question....are the frames on these new defenders identical in every way to an 1985 galvy chassis from RN? For example I know that the transfer case is closer to the front axel which supposedly is what causes that common issue with failing stock from drive shafts on lifted Pumas.
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  #6  
Old February 19th, 2012, 10:17 AM
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Puma Price

Actually it is listed for sale @ $79k on LRX.
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  #7  
Old February 19th, 2012, 10:36 AM
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I saw this on LRX and posted this one in the Flea Market section yesterday just before the seller posted here. Looks nice. I'm sure someone will buy it.

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...eferrerid=3384
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  #8  
Old February 19th, 2012, 10:51 AM
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Even selling as parts is not exactly legal, although it is the feds who will be mad about it, not really any state.

A new frame, a new bulkhead, some new t-peices and all you then have to worry about is the non-EPA motor.

Then again, there are lots of 1983/4/5/6/7 running around that have few if any parts left from the original truck.
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  #9  
Old February 19th, 2012, 10:56 AM
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What are you guys smoking, because I want some??

I love all the "boogie man" talk.

The truth is that you could buy this truck and re-title it in 95% of states and drive it for the rest of your life with no issues. See disclaimers below.

1) No doubt you may have issues with "resale", ie disclosure.

2) And I would not drive it into Canada or Mexico.


I make these statements without arguing about the "legalities" of driving it or any "ethical" arguments.

The risk in these trucks is in the importation and then sale (seller's risk).

Everyone loves to throw around anecdotes of mass seizures and crushings but it's simply not true. It's important when presenting discussion to disclose the "theory" as well as the "truth".

------ Follow up post added February 19th, 2012 10:58 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
Even selling as parts is not exactly legal, although it is the feds who will be mad about it, not really any state.

A new frame, a new bulkhead, some new t-peices and all you then have to worry about is the non-EPA motor.

Then again, there are lots of 1983/4/5/6/7 running around that have few if any parts left from the original truck.
This is a GREAT point! By law MANY of our truck are ILLEGAL. Put in a 2.8PS -- illegal. Switch out a certain number of parts and "upgrade" -- illegal. Really? Again let's talk "theory" and then "fact".
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  #10  
Old February 19th, 2012, 11:01 AM
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True, in the eyes of the law, is this anymore illegal than a 1985 with a 200tdi?
Hypothetically speaking ofcouse
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  #11  
Old February 19th, 2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaco1 View Post
True, in the eyes of the law, is this anymore illegal than a 1985 with a 200tdi?
Hypothetically speaking ofcouse
Yes. It was illegally imported, does not have a frame or anything to a legally imported truck (or a replacement frame) and there is a straight face argument that a 200tdi is EPA exempt and of the original type of motor (a 200tdi is a 2.5 with a different head no different than putting a newer small block chevy in place of an older small block chevy).

I would got to the mat on your truck. It is as legal as these things get.
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  #12  
Old February 19th, 2012, 11:47 AM
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Good to hear,
How about the hypothetical 110?
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  #13  
Old February 19th, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
.......... no different than putting a newer small block chevy in place of an older small block chevy).
See, that's actually "illegal" (SBC in a Defender).

There are no "shades" of illegal. It's ultimately up to the feds interpretation but based on written law, that's illegal. Period.

Obviously the laws governing the engine transplant are different than the laws governing importation. But still illegal. What's the difference if you break the law because you imported under a VIN swap, or don't follow the law during a restoration???

When these threads come up, it always makes it seem like somehow these imports are "more" illegal somehow. Illegal is illegal.

You can make the argument that certain infractions are more likely to be punished or prosecuted. That may be true. And obviously it would be easier to cross the border and back with an SBC engine swapped 85 than an "85 Puma". But they are BOTH illegal.

The fact is that most of us have trucks that are likely NOT in compliance with any number of laws and regulations from the EPA, DOT, and customs. I don't care. What's your business is your business.

But don't make it sound like this Puma is a only good for "parts" or that some trooper is going to impound it during a traffic stop. Let's get real.

If I had the cash I would buy this today. Is anyone else really saying different??? It's a great truck. New build 110 with a nice engine/drivetrain. I hope someone buys it and enjoys it.
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  #14  
Old February 19th, 2012, 01:34 PM
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To me, having a "legal" vehicle is like buying insurance - you pay a premium for something that most likely will never happen. Many people around me don't buy earthquake insurance and the odds are they will never need it so they pocket $400 bucks a year more than I do... but for me I like the peace of mind more than the $400 bucks.
My cars are legal and I paid a premium when purchasing them for that, but should I ever be in an accident or situation that could put them under scrutiny I don't need to worry about lawsuits or seizures. It is simply a personal choice regarding your tolerance for risk/reward.
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  #15  
Old February 19th, 2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
Oh, there are plenty of 'shades' if it were black and white, there wouldn't be so many lawyers.

-Jeff
x2

Last time I checked, it comes down more to technicalities than laws, but then again IANAL.

And arguably enough, while many lambaste the entry of these alleged illegal units, they will drive a NAS with a TDI.

And if anyone ( specially those that talk shit about the imports ) actually report to their insurance company the mods made to their units like bumpers, dislocating cones, sway bar removal , etc, because I assure you, the odds of that import been scrutinized in an accident are no different than your modified NAS
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Old February 19th, 2012, 05:22 PM
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Ron, as long as he doesn't sell the engine, why would he be skirting the law to sell the rest off as individual parts? He can legally import an entire truck less the engine and trans as parts with no ID and do with it as he wishes as long as he doesn't try and put an engine in it and title it for the road. Or am I missing something?

If he sells the entire truck to one person and that person puts it on the road either with its current mismatched vin or a new one and tries to drive it then he's just moving the problem. If he signed the import papers and that person gets into an accident then he's still on the hook anyway isn't he?

My take on the illegality is this. It's not about whether you can get away with importing it, titling it, driving it and even selling it on and making some money. It all comes down to what happens if the truck is in a serious accident as mentioned above and its provenance comes into the light. The guy driving is screwed. But the guy who imported it and sold it to a guy, who sold it to a guy, who sold it to the guy, etc. who's driving it is also screwed.

TDi engine swaps? Yeah that's pretty light grey and I wouldn't worry about it overmuch, but whole trucks that are clearly not 25yrs old and wearing false numbers? Too much risk there for my blood.

He states that he's fed up of the whole situation and he's trying to keep himself clean by using his lawyer for the sale, full disclosure, etc. If that's really the case then why is he trying to move the truck in one piece?

Even if you have a fully legal 25yr old truck that you are restoring with 'all' new parts. Where/when do the Ship of Theseus laws come into play?

Ian
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  #17  
Old February 19th, 2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D110 View Post
To me, having a "legal" vehicle is like buying insurance - you pay a premium for something that most likely will never happen.
This is precisely why they are priced the way they are............everyone knows you can get one "cheap" in Mexico or the UK. You are paying a premium for the "risk". No different than Cuban cigars, or any other "banned" item. So making comments about their price is irrelevant.

There's a seat for every ass.

If anyone is afraid or intimidated by their "status" as it is, don't be. At the same time you have to be ready if it "rains" as unlikely it would be..........so don't mortgage the house for it either.

Good luck on the sale.
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  #18  
Old February 19th, 2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
x2

Last time I checked, it comes down more to technicalities than laws, but then again IANAL.

And arguably enough, while many lambaste the entry of these alleged illegal units, they will drive a NAS with a TDI.

And if anyone ( specially those that talk shit about the imports ) actually report to their insurance company the mods made to their units like bumpers, dislocating cones, sway bar removal , etc, because I assure you, the odds of that import been scrutinized in an accident are no different than your modified NAS
You are right about your insurance. But I think what you would need to worry about would be the other guys insurance. If you kill someone in your 1985 Puma Defender you can rest assure that their lawyer is going to do his best to prove that you are liable because your truck isn't DOT to the letter of the law regardless of what it says on the title.
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  #19  
Old February 19th, 2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It all comes down to what happens if the truck is in a serious accident as mentioned above and its provenance comes into the light.
I've heard this over and over too but I don't understand.

Is there a fear that you would somehow be criminally prosecuted for injuries in the accident??

Or is it that the insurance company won't honor the claim, ie pay for repairs??

And if they didn't pay for repair, would they not pay for the other vehicle either??


In an accident there is NO difference between a 1993 NAS 110 and a 2011 Puma. I'm assuming the concern is that there was a "fraud" perpetrated on the insurance company, but I would think they would have to prove how it would have made a difference. I'll admit I don't know.
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  #20  
Old February 19th, 2012, 05:38 PM
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For me it's the risk that a good lawyer could argue that since my truck is not legal to drive in the US (not DOT compliant) then I am at fault for the accident and I get my ass sued off.

For the importer its that this fact came to light and the feds could now go after him if thay wanted to.
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