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  #41  
Old February 20th, 2012, 01:38 PM
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You guys did read the second sentence of his for sale ad? He says it is not legal for road use. Not clear that it's not legal or use b/c vin swap, but he isn't say 100% road legal buy and drive. And Dan was banned for his comments. You guys had to move this stuff here.
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  #42  
Old February 20th, 2012, 02:16 PM
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Please PM me with any direct questions on the truck if you guys have any.
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  #43  
Old February 20th, 2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bjf View Post
Get pulled over by a smart cop? What is a cop going to do? If the owner of this truck gets pulled over for a moving violation why would a cop care of this truck was restored, rebuilt, or titled as a pinto? I don't give a shit about this truck but those types of statements just add to the hysteria with no proof behind them.
Well, if it looks suspect, they could say it was stolen or a VIN swap and impound it.
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  #44  
Old February 20th, 2012, 02:51 PM
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Well, if it looks suspect, they could say it was stolen or a VIN swap and impound it.
I think this just sounds far fetched. The beauty of a defender is you literally can build what you want. So is a cop going to look at your truck and say it is too shiny or the wheels are from a 2011 and want to see import docs? Not likely. In order to come up with stolen or vin swapped they would have to have some probably cause. Why on earth would a cop bother with any of that in a routine stop for speeding? I could see if there was an accident or something but there is no man hunt for these. Otherwise everyone of us in a NAS truck would be stopped all the time for inspections.

Again just an opinion but until someone gives an example of this happening I think it is just speculation and rumor that has caused hysteria in the rover world.

Yes trucks have been seized but there have been specific reasons in all of those cases such as Julian's or the Overfinch trucks or even ones at the borders.
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  #45  
Old February 20th, 2012, 03:04 PM
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So what we're saying then is that a cop who likes Land Rovers and knows a little bit about them. Maybe his dad had one when he was a kid or something, who knows. He's following a truck such as this one who has a brake light out or runs a red or is doing a few over the limit or something. He pulls the reg after pulling the truck over and comes up with a title saying its pic 1. But he's actually looking at pic 2.

He doesn't have probably cause to dig a little deeper than his minor traffic infraction?

If it was titled as an 83 or later I could maybe see your point but I think this is a little too obvious even to the only mildly knowledgeable.
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  #46  
Old February 20th, 2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
So what we're saying then is that a cop who likes Land Rovers and knows a little bit about them. Maybe his dad had one when he was a kid or something, who knows. He's following a truck such as this one who has a brake light out or runs a red or is doing a few over the limit or something. He pulls the reg after pulling the truck over and comes up with a title saying its pic 1. But he's actually looking at pic 2.

He doesn't have probably cause to dig a little deeper than his minor traffic infraction?
What cop is going to do that and again how can he prove the guy didn't build it. He's an enthusiast so he is going to detain the person until the truck can be inspected? Then what? Now this truck I know nothing about but in general this theory is grasping at straws.

------ Follow up post added February 20th, 2012 12:13 PM ------

I am not speaking about this truck but the whole concept in general.
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  #47  
Old February 20th, 2012, 03:27 PM
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Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Point is, are 'you' prepared to take the risk? 'You' being a general term for the people who are kidding themselves that buying this and putting it on the street anywhere in the US is a good idea and there is no chance of any comeback. The argument about this only being a risk in CA I don't see. The laws being tweaked here are both federal and also on the books of every state as far as I know.

It's appears to be a blatant case of VIN tampering. Would we be having this conversation if this was Neil's new Porsche and it was titled as a 1972 Beetle?

It's not is it Neil?
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  #48  
Old February 20th, 2012, 03:40 PM
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if this 110 was for sale in the UK what would it go for? I also agree with Barry, no cop is going really know all that info unless its an officer that is on this board. To me the issue for the buyer is #1 having the cash to buy it, trying to get a tag and title in your home state and insurance.
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  #49  
Old February 20th, 2012, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chris snell View Post
The right way to do it is to buy a NAS or a 25 year-old truck and bring it up to current year standards.

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Originally Posted by bjf View Post
The beauty of a defender is you literally can build what you want.


Actually I don't think you can. Let's assume it's possible for a minute that this truck WAS sitting on the original 1972 chassis that its title suggests (I think it was 72?). The truck would still be questionable, although a bit more legit and the issue would be a lot more grey.

First off I am not a lawyer so this is just MY interpretation of the laws and I am willing to be proved wrong. Not suggested or hoped I am wrong because you really have a hard on to buy the truck and want to ignore anything that suggests its risky, but proved wrong by somebody who knows the law and can state that my interpretation is flawed. I really hope somebody does prove me wrong cos there is a heck of a lot of things I would like to do that I don't because of this.

Here's my interpretation:

Look up Ship of Theseus laws in respect to vehicles. It's pretty grey as its open to interpretation by the inspector but essentially there comes a point in replacing (not restoring) parts on a vehicle when you have replaced TOO MANY parts to retain its original ID. In the UK its covered (or was) under the points system. Replace too many parts and you don't have sufficient points left to retain the original ID so they issue you a non-age related Q plate (if they find out). There is a famous skit on a UK TV show about a guy who has had the same broom (he's a road sweeper) for 20 years or something. It's had 7 new handles and 6 new heads, but it's still the 'same' broom. It's this principal that's applied. I believe the same principal is being applied by custom's at the docks. Replace too many parts before it gets here and it's no longer eligible for entry.

So you buy your 25yr old legal import truck. You bring it over and strip it to a pile of rusty pieces. You go through and replace everything but the VIN plate with new and improved (or just new to it) parts. Renew it or bring it up to current spec in other words. According to the law as I understand it you no longer have a 25yr exempt vehicle. You have a new vehicle that you manufactured yourself. Maybe in your states laws you can get it titled as a home built or something like that, maybe not. But you no longer have a 25yrs old Land Rover that's exempt. Where is the cutoff point? Like I said, that's grey and open to interpretation. There are not many vehicles out there like the Ds that you can do this too anymore. So this hasn't come up much (yet). In our circles at least.

Are you likely to get caught? Probably not, today at least. But in 10 or 15 or 20 years time when a whole bunch of these things are over here and being messed with and the powers that be are more switched on to what is going on? Who knows. As the importer or builder are you still liable even though you sold the truck 10 years ago and its had 7 other owners since? As the importer, yes you are until that truck rusts away. As the builder, I am not sure.

The point is that there ARE laws that cover what is going on here. Whether you agree or disagree with them is moot, they exist. Don't like them? Write your congressman. But until then they are on the books and you should consider your risk in flouting them.

So you argue that I am full of crap because Chip Foose and others on TV build new cars from old ones all the time? Nope, they restore or refinish many of the original parts to retain the original identity. They don't replace ALL of them like many are trying to do with these new trucks on old papers. That's considered VIN fraud or personal manufacture depending on what you did and how you did it.

This guy (or somebody upstream of him, he's welcome to chime in on that) appears to have taken the legal ID of an existing vehicle and swapped it onto another to hide the original identity of the new vehicle for profit. That's VIN fraud plain and simple and if discovered the very least that's going to happen to the new owner who shells out $75k for it is that the vehicle gets taken away.

You still want to risk that maybe/maybe not traffic stop? Good luck to you.
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  #50  
Old February 20th, 2012, 08:19 PM
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I can't afford the truck, but if I owned a large piece of land or lived in a really small town I would be interested in it. Would I drive it everyday in Atlanta or Birmingham? Nope, but there are people who can buy the truck and hire a good lawyer too. I would rather get a newer legal truck and make it look like a new truck. If they're aren't hassling all the boy racers out there who cares if you improve an old truck.

What I hate are the stupid laws. Who cares whether it is an 83 or a 2010 if it's basically the same damn truck. So the body and safety features are the same, but that one isn't rusty and has an engine that pollutes less and gets better gas mileage... WTF?
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  #51  
Old February 20th, 2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by roverguy View Post
I can't afford the truck, but if I owned a large piece of land or lived in a really small town I would be interested in it. Would I drive it everyday in Atlanta or Birmingham? Nope, but there are people who can buy the truck and hire a good lawyer too. I would rather get a newer legal truck and make it look like a new truck. If they're aren't hassling all the boy racers out there who cares if you improve an old truck.

What I hate are the stupid laws. Who cares whether it is an 83 or a 2010 if it's basically the same damn truck. So the body and safety features are the same, but that one isn't rusty and has an engine that pollutes less and gets better gas mileage... WTF?
I'm just curious about peoples opinion on this. I don't care about this truck at all and am not referring to this situation at all.

MONEY ASIDE, what would you rather have: An fully restored NAS 110 by ECR, or similar, with your favorite engine (300tdi, 200tdi, TD5, or 4.6 V8) OR a legalish 2011/1985 imported Puma Defender 110. Me, I would take a lot of imperfections of an older simpler Defender before I took a Puma Defender. Dumb?
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  #52  
Old February 20th, 2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cwilder View Post
if this 110 was for sale in the UK what would it go for? I also agree with Barry, no cop is going really know all that info unless its an officer that is on this board. To me the issue for the buyer is #1 having the cash to buy it, trying to get a tag and title in your home state and insurance.
No more than the $ 30,000 that it is worth here
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  #53  
Old February 20th, 2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NomaD110 View Post
I'm just curious about peoples opinion on this. I don't care about this truck at all and am not referring to this situation at all.

MONEY ASIDE, what would you rather have: An fully restored NAS 110 by ECR, or similar, with your favorite engine (300tdi, 200tdi, TD5, or 4.6 V8) OR a legalish 2011/1985 imported Puma Defender 110. Me, I would take a lot of imperfections of an older simpler Defender before I took a Puma Defender. Dumb?
I think I would take a legal 2011. Taking a NAS 110 and building it up away from original is like taking a e-type and putting in a Chevy engine or something. I just couldn't do it. Plus I would never drive the 93. I also have the IIa as my simpler truck though... That's just me though, I can't take something rare and mod it. If money was no object, I'd have an ECR 110 and a puma. I'm probably not the norm though.
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  #54  
Old February 20th, 2012, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
So what we're saying then is that a cop who likes Land Rovers and knows a little bit about them. Maybe his dad had one when he was a kid or something, who knows. He's following a truck such as this one who has a brake light out or runs a red or is doing a few over the limit or something. He pulls the reg after pulling the truck over and comes up with a title saying its pic 1. But he's actually looking at pic 2.

He doesn't have probably cause to dig a little deeper than his minor traffic infraction?

If it was titled as an 83 or later I could maybe see your point but I think this is a little too obvious even to the only mildly knowledgeable.
If a board of "veterans" are constantly arguing about the legalities like a bunch of yentas, how on earth would a cop do ANYTHING other than give out a ticket?!? This is just crazy, really.

Even if it were a cop on this very board I seriously doubt he would (or be able to) do anything. What would be the charge?? Grand theft??

If I put a Puma bonnet on a NAS 110 what's the difference from the outside........almost zero.
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  #55  
Old February 20th, 2012, 09:53 PM
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If this were titled as an 83 or later, a coil sprung model in other words I would tend to agree with you to a point as many of the parts could be switched easily and a paint job does wonders.

Problem is that this is titled I believe as a 1972? Kinda hard to turn a SIII into a Puma no matter how good you are with a spanner and anybody who knows a little about LRs may know that.

What can the cop do? Well here in AZ he can get suspicious and seize the vehicle for further inspections. In AZ that would mean a Level II inspection to determine its correct VIN and when they find the VIN number on the frame either doesn't match the paperwork, doesn't exist or is not a factory coded VIN then it's on to Level III to dig into it deeper. At that point the owner needs to provide the paperwork to show that he obtained the 'new' parts legally and they are not stolen. It would quickly go downhill from there. In other states I don't know, you'd have to check your own laws and how they are enforced.
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  #56  
Old February 20th, 2012, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cwilder View Post
if this 110 was for sale in the UK what would it go for? I also agree with Barry, no cop is going really know all that info unless its an officer that is on this board. To me the issue for the buyer is #1 having the cash to buy it, trying to get a tag and title in your home state and insurance.
About 32,000. Same year, same mileage, same trim package.

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  #57  
Old February 20th, 2012, 11:04 PM
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I just don't understand why someone would go through the trouble of illegally importing a 2010 and then title it as a series. They could have at least used an '84 title and VIN plate!
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  #58  
Old February 21st, 2012, 12:13 AM
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I can't restrain any longer. Grey-market/black market Defenders is sort of what got me interested in these things in the first place. Exclusivity is really what drives it, correct? Everyone knows they could buy a '07 G-55 that would do all of this and then some for $75k, but then again any rookie NFL linebacker could do the same thing and that wouldn't be fun now would it?

With regard to this Puma. I bet you could buy this and somehow get it regetered and insured without any problem whatsoever. No cop (stat or local) would ever give a flying f**k either........UNTIL.

I realize it is the "armegeddon" scenario, but what if you T-boned a Honda Passport on the way to work someday, or even if the Honda T-Boned you for that matter. You drive carefully and judiciously you say? fine, what if you do something as boring and mundane as back over over somebody's foot in Whole Food's parking lot (or Mons Venus if you're Neil). Any junior associate with a law degree from DeVry could figure out that your truck is illegal.
Then guess what? Take down your pants. Not just to the ankles, but all the way off and prepare to be impaled by the fattest instrument of financial destruction you could imagine.

Maybe those with an umbrella policy would be covered, but even then I bet there's a way for the insurance comany to deny you. This is like a roman orgy of negligence from an attorney's prospective. You are soley responsible for a vehicle being on the roads that has been universally determined by our governing body to be unsafe.

Don't get me wrong, I love this truck, would love to own it and still try hard to justify owning such a thing. Bottom line is that most anyone with the means to purchase such a toy usually has enough to lose to actually think twice about the liability. Before you actually do the math, it sounds like a cool idea to take this truck and put everything on a early 80s ROW 110 and title it as an appropriate exempt truck. Financially unfeasible and still not really legit.

20-something ricers who find black-market Skylines that still live with their parents are exempt from this discussion as most have a net worth less than the price of the vehicle. For the rest of us who actually have something to lose it's a different story.

Not being a hater, but that is the bottom line. Those with high tolerance for risk, decent liquidity and low net worth need apply such as rising drug lords, corner hustlers and newly-bonused junior traders (that still live with thier parents) . Pretty much not the crowd that digs Defenders if you read between the lines.
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  #59  
Old February 21st, 2012, 12:36 AM
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Damn Jackie, Skyline's where my next round in the Mag. Since the poke at Neil's new Porsche was a dud (sorry Neil).

For those not sure what we're talking about, I recommend Google and including the words seized or crushed in the search. This is what happens when something like this becomes prevalent or visible enough for the feds to finally want to take an interest.
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  #60  
Old February 21st, 2012, 01:09 AM
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If I were not in a line of work where messing up could cost me my job I would be all over these things. I have it in my head how to do it as legal as possible, but the only way you are going to be safe is to get a court opinion on it and even then some other court might disagree.

I think the insurance risk is overblown. Unlike the UK, state laws in the US are not set up in a way to deny coverage as long as you disclose what you have. No insurance co or at least no decent one will be stupid enough to fight a claim because the truck was rebuilt to newer spec.

If I were the seller, I would pull the drivetrain and sell the truck as parts. If I wanted to make it as legal as possible, I would import an 8X 110 and a new frame and put that base and rebuild it with the parts from this truck.
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