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  #21  
Old September 25th, 2013, 07:11 PM
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Jeff you are correct. So how are the teams chosen? First come first serve?
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  #22  
Old September 25th, 2013, 08:06 PM
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Not at all elitist in design, but like any motorsport/cross content rally there is a cost that would favor those with enough disposable income and free time to participate.

Teams would be selected on a first come first served - with baseline funding required on registration and the remainder due in intervals leading up to the event. Teams can fundraise or be entirely self financed - no restrictions on who can participate as long as basic criteria are met:
  • Adult
  • Legally licensed to operate motor vehicle in home country allowing for reciprocal driving in USA and Canada
  • In possession of a Passport and able to travel freely across USA/Canada borders
  • Medical evaluation indicating no significant medical restrictions for moderate activity
  • Legally able and willing to sign waivers/insurance forms

I'd be surprised if there were 4 teams able to coordinate the time, funds, and interest within a few months time for the first running of the event. After a couple years I could see it growing to the point where there may be competition for limited spaces, but not at the start...
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  #23  
Old September 25th, 2013, 08:09 PM
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I'm in for sure, I'm originally from Canada and could help with logistics in Canada if needed. I have family all down the west cost.
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  #24  
Old September 27th, 2013, 01:11 PM
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Costs...

Seems like the biggest question from most of the interested folks - is the cost to run as a rally participant.

First off some comparative costs: REI 10 day Alaska hiking excursion $3300 + airfare from Seattle $600 + hotel in Fairbanks/Anchorage (2 nights) $400 = $4300/10 days = $430 a day. (There are less expensive and more expensive options but the amount of time involved and "active" nature of this excursion is similar enough for a basic comparison - IE no cruise ships, luxury trains, etc...)

Cost is estimated PER TEAM (note that teams are minimum 2-persons and maximum 3-persons)
  • Vehicle - exMOD D90 SW or 110SW roro to Tacoma - $10,000 (optimistic?)
  • Stateside refresh - fluids/filters/battery/bulbs/fuses/etc.. $200
  • Vehicle Outfit - $2000 (tent, recovery/repair tools, camp equipment)
  • Ferry to Alaska - $1000 (assuming vehicle and team size of 2 - four persons per bunk-room)
  • Event Meals (Breakfast and dinner) - $500
  • Fuel Costs - (4K miles at 20mpg*$4gal) $800
  • Misc event costs - (insurances, support crew fuel, radios, hats/shirts/raincoats) $500

Total per-team cost - $14K (assuming minimal sponsor support)
Per Person cost is between - $7k - $4.5k for the event (travel to from Seattle is not included in calculation)
Per day - per person cost for a Team of 2 is $500 per day

At the end of the event the teams are able to buy out their vehicle for a small additional cost (funds used to recoup event costs and drive down cost for future events)

So, here is the $7k question, is $7k too much? If too expensive, how close to 7K can we get and still have it be affordable? (this tells me how much sponsorship/support we need to go after) Obviously if we can get the costs down then the price goes down for the participants. All of this assumes that there are 9 people willing to help out without pay as sweep/support staff - four of which will need to have a vehicle available capable of flat towing a Defender.

Open for discussion...
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  #25  
Old September 28th, 2013, 07:54 PM
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As an electrician that has an adventurist stuck inside me I am limited to how much time and money I can spend on dreams. Ever sense I have seen the Camel Trophy I have dreamed of doing something along the same lines. Even when I wasn't a Land Rover owner. I was asked by Brian to post what I really thought this event should cost. I have spent the last 2 days talking to friends and people about the NXNWAR and what they thought was a good price per person. I got any where from $1500-$5000 per person. All agreed that it may cost $7000 per person but that is a little pricey. I asked young old , rich poor, home bodies to adventurist to get a broad opinion.
I think that $3000-$4000 per person for a 2 man team and $2500-$3500 per person for a 3 man team. This is still more than we spend on our 2 week vacation so it wouldn't be feasible for us without sponsors. That raises the question of what do you present to people to convince them to donate to a team? How do they benefit from it? If somebody could answer that for me I would be grateful as I want to do this badly.
Like Brian : open for discussion.
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  #26  
Old September 28th, 2013, 08:37 PM
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The problem with the price for me is the amount budgeted for the vehicle:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mybluett View Post
  • Vehicle - exMOD D90 SW or 110SW roro to Tacoma - $10,000 (optimistic?)
Having paid $12000 for my 110 it does not make sense to me to pay ten grand for a vehicle that I have to give back after two weeks. All other costs I agree with, it is just the vehicle cost.
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  #27  
Old September 28th, 2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by C391HAT View Post
The problem with the price for me is the amount budgeted for the vehicle:

Having paid $12000 for my 110 it does not make sense to me to pay ten grand for a vehicle that I have to give back after two weeks. All other costs I agree with, it is just the vehicle cost.
You don't have to give it back... The teams would be able to buy out the truck at a minimal cost to cover the total event expenses - though you may not want it after being in it for two weeks.

This is not envisioned as a for profit venture - and I don't want to end up with a fleet of exmod trucks to deal with after the event as well...
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  #28  
Old September 28th, 2013, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mybluett View Post
You don't have to give it back... Depending on the final costs the teams would be able to buy out the truck at a minimal cost - though you may not want it after being in it for two weeks.
This is not envisioned as a for profit venture - and I don't want to end up with a fleet of exmod trucks to deal with after the event as well...
The issue is for the teams that know they aren't going to buy the truck out from the start. I think it would be better to lower the initial cost but raise the buy out price. Then teams might join that would have been put off by the high entry cost or uncertain if they would want to keep the truck. Then having spent two weeks in the truck the teams would fall in love with it, wouldn't want to let it go and want to buy it. Whatever vehicles are left over could be sold independently from the event so you would have money from selling the vehicle in addition to the entry fees to cover the cost of the event.
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  #29  
Old September 28th, 2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C391HAT View Post
The issue is for the teams that know they aren't going to buy the truck out from the start. I think it would be better to lower the initial cost but raise the buy out price. Then teams might join that would have been put off by the high entry cost or uncertain if they would want to keep the truck. Then having spent two weeks in the truck the teams would fall in love with it, wouldn't want to let it go and want to buy it. Whatever vehicles are left over could be sold independently from the event so you would have money from selling the vehicle in addition to the entry fees to cover the cost of the event.
Not a bad idea. The question is how to cover the up-front cost of trucks and ensure people don't back out and leave the rest of the teams burdened with logistics expenses. A bigger investment means fewer folks will back out. My original idea is to have the winning team get to keep their truck at no additional expense - teams have the option to not buy out the truck and get a reduced entry cost on the next years event.


Not exactly on parallel, but as a comparison the average cost to race the Dakar via motorbike is $70k plus...
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  #30  
Old September 29th, 2013, 12:04 AM
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I love the idea and hope it works out but I think that you have a big challenge in front of you, Brian.

While I've never planned a multi-week rally, I have organized and guided five annual ten-day group trips to the deserts of Utah. When I announce a trip these days, they typically fill up within a week or two and most of the participants are repeat participants. We saw 66% follow-through last year; that is, of the 12 people that said "I'm in", 8 actually showed up. That's the best success for us yet. The first year that I did this, I had a whopping one person join me of the five that signed up. I did the trip anyway and we had a total blast and the next year, I had six trucks join me.

The number one reason for people to back out after saying "I'm in" is money, followed by time commitment. It's one thing for someone to say "I'm in" while sipping bourbon late one evening in their study. It's another thing entirely to actually prepare their truck, take a week off from work, leave the wife and kids and drive a Land Rover a thousand miles each way to do a trip while spending a few grand on gas, food and gear. Add the cost of a newly-imported ex-MOD, a ferry to Alaska, and fourteen days away from home and that's a tall order, unless you're retired and wealthy.

I totally appreciate the spirit of what you are trying to do. Two weeks of ass-kicking driving, navigating, and camping would be the unforgettable adventure of a lifetime. It just may be hard to find people who can commit. I think you'd see much higher participation if, say, you shortened it to one week (maybe keep the event within BC) and allowed folks to bring their own Defenders. This would go against the spirit of what you're trying to do but it would at least be a start.
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  #31  
Old September 30th, 2013, 12:27 AM
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What is the ideal "adventurer"

So what you are saying is that he is looking for empty nesters that will leverage the 401k or those that never got locked down with kids or wife? So figuring out what the cost is + the "marginal" cost of the 90 is key. Quite frankly opening it up to those with their own 90 opens it up to the "Dakar" types - those with an open checkbook.

So I might fit the mold of someone looking for something interesting with the equalizer of an XMOD (owned by the operator), and willing to pay for an outing that meets that criteria. And would be interested in both price and extra cost to buy the 90 - although I own a 110 (and a 90 - right now) so may not be interested in buying a 90 that I just thrashed the cr*p out of. Perhaps reaching out (off-line) to those that seem most interested and are willing to put money down may be the best approach...just sayin'.

And you are right...one week rules out Alaska, the last frontier, which is half the draw...for me. Honestly his criteria kind of rules out the weekend warriors and appeals to those that are serious, but limits the pocketbook...still interested.
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  #32  
Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xplorUtah View Post
So what you are saying is that he is looking for empty nesters that will leverage the 401k or those that never got locked down with kids or wife? So figuring out what the cost is + the "marginal" cost of the 90 is key. Quite frankly opening it up to those with their own 90 opens it up to the "Dakar" types - those with an open checkbook.

So I might fit the mold of someone looking for something interesting with the equalizer of an XMOD (owned by the operator), and willing to pay for an outing that meets that criteria. And would be interested in both price and extra cost to buy the 90 - although I own a 110 (and a 90 - right now) so may not be interested in buying a 90 that I just thrashed the cr*p out of. Perhaps reaching out (off-line) to those that seem most interested and are willing to put money down may be the best approach...just sayin'.

And you are right...one week rules out Alaska, the last frontier, which is half the draw...for me. Honestly his criteria kind of rules out the weekend warriors and appeals to those that are serious, but limits the pocketbook...still interested.
Right now this is a discussion with the toughest audience, ones who already own a Defender - remember that the Defender is a "dream" car to many folks who have neither the facilities or space to support ownership.

Disposition of the team vehicles is an interesting part of the proposed event, and a great way to make the challenge appealing to certain folks. If the buyout on the vehicle was $5k (just a random number I am using for conversation) and the winning team was given the opportunity to buy their truck for the grand price of $1 (as opposed to a gift) would this be appealing? What if it included the "kit" (roof tent and all)?

There would then be an opportunity for participants to recoup some of the cost of the event through vehicle sale or if funds were raised via charity affiliation or donation then the vehicle could be raffled off or donated to your charity supporters.

Any funds raised would go back into the event to keep it running annually if there is enough interest and support. While not cheap, it is certainly a bargain in the realm of motor-rally. The only real issue is if a team is formed of friends, who gets to buy out the one team truck?

We are moving forward with discussions and clarifying intent - mostly because of the great support and interest from folks on and off the forum participating in discussions.

Any AK folks in Anchorage or Fairbanks who would like to meet up and discuss I would love set up an informal meet-up this month.
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  #33  
Old October 2nd, 2013, 09:18 PM
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I see how the math changes completely if the participant is wanting to buy an ex-MOD. For what you're charging, the participant is basically getting a solid ex-MOD for what it would cost them to do the import themselves (without an importer) and getting a kick-ass trip at cost. The use of a common vehicle platform is a nice reassurance--it makes spare parts logistics easy. A few of us have imported our own trucks and did the cross-country drive home from the port and it's risky--we had unknown vehicles with unknown history and more or less had to start the adventure at the port gate. Your participants will get trucks that have been gone through and (I assume) show-stopper issues remediated. That's a pretty sweet deal.
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  #34  
Old October 3rd, 2013, 11:57 PM
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Had a few phone and in-person conversations on this and it keeps getting better...

Certainly will continue to move forward with planning and development - one of the open questions is timing.

When? The window of clear roads and decent weather limit us to July through October, but when would most people be able to participate? The timeline is still two weeks - shorter means all windshield time and not really enjoying being in the environment, longer would be difficult from a vacation/free time perspective. So the event is planned at two weeks including a travel home day from Seattle. What part of what month is best?

Early July
Late July
Early August
Late August
Early September
Late September
Early October
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  #35  
Old October 4th, 2013, 12:12 AM
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Late July for me.
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  #36  
Old October 4th, 2013, 12:15 AM
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So if I'm reading this right, you (an current D90 owner) wouldn't be able to use your own D90?!? Sorry I'm late to the thread!
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  #37  
Old October 4th, 2013, 12:28 AM
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So if I'm reading this right, you (an current D90 owner) wouldn't be able to use your own D90?!? Sorry I'm late to the thread!
As a rally participant - no you would not be able to use your own truck. A big part of the "challenge" portion of the event is to be able to compete with everyone using the same basic EXMOD truck.

As a volunteer/staff member - hell yes, bring your own truck! We need a total of 4 volunteer vehicles to run point/sweep/control.

The Rally Challenge version of the event is about rising to the difficulty of traveling 4000+ miles in a freshly released ExMOD Defender across the last vast wilderness in North America while demonstrating teamwork and a skill-set suited to successful overland expedition travel. Those who compete earn the right to say they have had a grand adventure in the far north, and they will have fantastic campfire stories of difficulty and teamwork in the shadow of grand mountains under the northern lights. The winners will take home a rolling reminder of their success and a special invitation to participate again the following year, and all who would dare to be a part of the event will have a common bond of blood, sweat, and diesel in a Defender at work...
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  #38  
Old October 4th, 2013, 12:42 AM
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I don't understand how/why anyone unless they specifically wanted an EXMOD vehicle would like that...so many of us don't restore to flip as hobby but restore and use as hobby...IMO it would be preferable to use your own equipment because the challenge would be to check your skills with your equipment...with your current vested blood, sweat, tears...(and wallet). Just sayin- not meaning to cause controversy or be antagonistic.
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  #39  
Old October 4th, 2013, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Larson View Post
I don't understand how/why anyone unless they specifically wanted an EXMOD vehicle would like that...so many of us don't restore to flip as hobby but restore and use as hobby...IMO it would be preferable to use your own equipment because the challenge would be to check your skills with your equipment...with your current vested blood, sweat, tears...(and wallet). Just sayin- not meaning to cause controversy or be antagonistic.
The issue with doing it that way is it becomes a challenge of who can throw the most money into a vehicle and results will correspond with money spent
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  #40  
Old October 4th, 2013, 01:09 AM
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The issue with doing it that way is it becomes a challenge of who can throw the most money into a vehicle and results will correspond with money spent
I guess...still driving an EXMOD without knowing it, not having your "stuff" doesn't necessarily enhance an overland experience. Most of us know every little sound our LR's make and when something is wrong, usually before it results in catastrophic failure. Ok I will just read and enjoy! I'll tap Josh's drone feed when this happens!!
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