Originally Posted by Hammertime
Well we just came back from the Cove. We got to talking the the guy in charge and asked him why ROAV does not have MAR here? Here is what he said. Quote ROAV had scheduled a MAR event there 3 years ago. And that he reserved the alotted dates. Those date came and passed, no phone call saying they were canceling the dates no anything. He said it left a bad taste in his mouth. Which who could blame him. Seems the American way anymore no one takes responsiblity anymore. If you can get away withit it's alright. Thats BULLSHIT. At least have the BALLS to call and Cancel. I have my own service business and if a customer bails on me without a call or a good explanation thier going to have a had time getting me to come back. And if I think I am going to be even 5 minute late I am calling to say so. There is not many good wheeling places left so the last thing you want to do is piss them off, What ASSHOLE's. And as far as setting date to wheel the same time as other groups on purpose thats BuLLshit too! Grow up get over it. I know I probably pissed a few people off. But you know everything I said is true. The Offroading crowd is small enough the last thing we need to do is split it up and alienate people.
I did that, Dana. Per the request of the 2007 ROAV Board of Directors. I was asked by the Board to reserve the Cove for MAR. They gave me the dates to reserve and asked me to handle it. So I did.
Later on around May of 2008 (don't quote me on an exact date), the 2008 Board of Directors changed things up. I asked MANY MANY times what was going on, but no one would talk to me. If you reference the Dweb thread on MAR 2008, you can see where myself as well as Garrett Porderfield and JB McClure asked repeatedly what was going on for MAR 2008. No one would answer us (this was before the time for the ROAV BBS). I made phone calls, sent e-mails, etc... but I could not get a reply out of anyone. One of the Board members lived right down the street from me at the time and I went to his house to ask questions personally, but still NEVER got a solid answer. Once I made the reservations on behalf of ROAV, I was cut out of the loop.
Once MAR was announced to be held at Oakridge estates in 2008, that's when some of the shit hit the fan. My name was on the promissory letter from the Cove to ROAV. I had brain-raped Daniel and Willis at the Cove for all the information the ROAV Board of Directors asked me to get. This went on for several days. I felt like I owed the Cove some support for their work. In 2008 we did in fact go to the Cove for the first Anti-MAR (Mike McCaig gave it that name). We had about 35-40 trucks present and over 60 people. This was a far cry from what the Cove was expecting, but I did what I could. I did tell Willis that ROAV would not be bringing their MAR event to the Cove as soon as I could, but since ROAV would not volunteer that information until the 11th hour, I was a little late in doing so because I had no idea what the fuck was going on.
We returned to the Cove for 2 more years giving them as much business as possible.
I'm also a little misguided by your tone in your email. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but when you say this:
And as far as setting date to wheel the same time as other groups on purpose thats BuLLshit too! Grow up get over it. I know I probably pissed a few people off. But you know everything I said is true. The Offroading crowd is small enough the last thing we need to do is split it up and alienate people.
...I get the feeling you're talking about me. If you are, just come out and say it. Don't be a pussy.
------ Follow up post added July 25th, 2011 02:21 PM ------
Dan - That site near Winchester sure looks promising...we've considered
Oak Ridge (my wife graduated high school with the landowner...he's made
a shitload of money in the junk recycling and waste-hauling bidness....)
but they've always wanted too much for a site fee. For the jeepers
crowd with a thousands of vehicles, that's not too bad, but it has been
cost-prohibitive for us. Then again, we've made a bit of money over the
Can you send me any contact info on the place? Like landowner or an
idea of their site fees? Or a location? Mike McCaig and myself - two
of the five remaining founders of ROAV -are heading to the mountains
this weekend for a bit of off-road camping. We could detour a bit to
As the official "club historian," I'm a permanent member of the board of
directors, so I still have some say in things.... Pearl's Pond is
great, but loosing full use of the island - either through flooding or
re-planting - puts a real crimp on things. There's not a lot of flat
land for camping.
>Yeah, you'll quickly learn the land owners are "different". Not too good of
>people to work with, but the guys at Big Dogs Productions seem to have an
>"in" with those guys. Also, in talking with Garrett Porderfield (he does
>off-road training at the Cove monthly) Big Dogs may be able to get ROAV a
>great deal on insurance and may be willing to do a lot of the legg work on
>promoting and planning the event. Might be worth a phone call.
Alex Gracie Thanks for the reply...we never got around to getting up there...but it
sure seems like a good choice for the MAR in '08. Talked with the
McDowell fellow who seemed pretty nice, though. I've organized quite a
few rallies, including the 50th at Greek Peak in NY and many of the MARs
- before I got burnt out by the work. Now I prefer to chill at the
events...I'm gettin' too old for that sort of foolishness....
Camped over the weekend at Davis Run near Sounding Knob in Highland
County. Pretty good weekend with *great* weather - actually cool at night!
Great time - until I developed a death wobble on the way home - most
likely the panhard rod bushings - one of which is nearly new. If'n I
kept it under 45 mph, all was well. It took a loooong time to get home
not driving the super-slab....
Sending this note again; I dont think it went through the 1st time.
Daniel Chapman is in touch with the Cove and October 2,3,4,5 2008 is ours if we want it.
Daniel will get back with them later to confirm.
They require $37/attendee for camping and 20% of our admission price. This cost does not include the insurance policy.
Daniel will put together a short Microsoft Movie to be aired during this year's MAR highlighting next year's 60th Celebration/MAR at The Cove.
I've put Daniel's email on this em.
Paul J. Prosser
Sounds good to me, who was tasked with getting LRNA aboard if anybody?
East Botha of LRR pledged to contact LRNA thru his LRNA dealer
rep...James was to follow up, collect sponsor check, etc..
OK OK -- I need help on this -- I am in Bristol VA all week on a massive
job -- and just swamped until next weekend.
Sounds good to me. . . if everyone agrees, let's book it and be done!
Sounds like a plan!
That's great that we can have it on those dates! Let's do it!
A couple of questions: Do they require a deposit? Do they need a signiture on a contract? It would be nice to have something in writing from them. I'm sure you see that the National Rally is already hitting all the boards with their adverts so we should come up with a press release and and a letter to potential sponsors ASAP. If we can get some folks together to go see the site let me know I'd like to go along.
To answer a few of Mike's questions.
The Cove does not require any sort of deposit. Actually, things seem
pretty lax as far as The Cove management goes. I've met both Daniel and
Willis before in person. Both seem to be "ok" guys but I think it depends
on what day of the week you catch them on. So, I think something in
writing from The Cove would be beneficial to ROAV.
One thing Willis was not very clear on was the rental of the property. He
said for the 3 nights of camping, we're looking at $37.00 per adult and
$6.00 per child under 12; this includes the "land management fee" for the
trails. In addition, The Cove wants "something like 10% to 20% of what the
organizers charge". 10 to 20% is a big difference, in my opinion. So that
in it's self I think should be in writing.
The only concern I have is the camping/per person fee. $37.00 per person
does not sound so bad. But, times that by 3 or 4 in a family and I can
already see the complaints. A family of 3 would cost $111.00 plus the ROAV
membership of $20.00, the event fee and 3 t-shirts and you're over
$200.00. There was no mention of a fee for off-site lodgers and 3-day
trail passes. Now, taking that into consideration, when I went to the
National Rally, my registration was $40.00 which included a t-shirt, and
then I paid $240.00 for a hotel room making the total event fee $280.00. I
did not hear too many people complaining at the National.
Touching on the National once more. The whole time I was there, besides
breakfast and a sandwich of lunch, I did not buy dinner either of the 4
nights I was there. That means a lot. The sponsorship the National Rally
has was awesome to say the least. No reason MAR cannot have this same
sponsorship. Just as an example this is how their night schedule worked:
Thursday night - Buffet style cocktail party. Rolled cold sandwiches
(tortilla with chicken or roast beef), chips and salsa, warm smoked
salmon, and veggies and dip. They also had a bar set-up, we received 2
free drink tickets and the rest of your drinks were cash. This was a
non-specific vendor sponsored event. I think part of the vendors
registration went toward this special event. I enjoyed this night. This
allowed the attendees to meet and greet not only the vendors but to meet
each other under one roof/tent.
Friday night - Hamburgers and Hot Dogs, chips, potato salad. Beer kegs
were sponsored by Off-Rovering. Food and drinks were again sponsored by
all the various vendors. This was called "Vendors Night". All the vendors
had their tables set up in one area located in a big field. I guess they
had about 15 vendor "booths".
Saturday night - Buffet style again. Roast beef, mac and cheese, green
beans, more hamburger and hot dogs, etc.... This was sponsored by LRNA.
Afterwords they had their raffle which raised ~$4500.00, all of which was
donated to an area non-profit organization. The left over beer from
Off-Rovering was also available.
What I'm getting at is if ROAV can get more sponsorship, I think ROAV
could lower their part of the admission fee and overall have a lot less
expenses. I asked Doug Evilsizor from LRL magazine what he would like to
see at future MAR events, and this is his response:
"i would love to do a LRL Lounge event like we did in montrose. but have
to have a venue that works. the current MAR location (coupled with the
unrelenting rain) isn't very friendly for a good evening.
and i can't really just put up a tent at the venue, the point of the
Lounge is to provide benefit to subscribers & supporters rather than
giving lots of stuff to freeloaders. so it must be a close, accessible,
but a off site location.
but i am willing to do a lot more at MAR by way of support. from
publishing a special MAR edition (or insert) to brining in bands & booze,
to organizing photographers at key points on the trail to provide shots to
attendees, to simple cash. the thing I need is circulation and subscribers
(as well as advertisers). if there is a way to wrap a subscription in with
every MAR attendee or ROAV member, that really helps me."
LRL really stood out at the National Rally. Although I've always felt the
LRL magazine was lame, at best, Doug really is a Rover Head of another
level. At his Lounge Event, Doug rented a Bed and Breakfast to host the
off-site cocktail party. At the party, Doug had Sky Vodka in attendance
giving away free flavored vodka drinks, as well as Mountain Khakis giving
away free pants and cigars. He also had a silent auction which included a
set of tires, Land Rover gears bags, art, cigars, and about a dozen other
things. The profits of the auction went to a charity who was also in
attendance. Side events like this take away from the "rough neck camping
in the woods" most of our wives do not enjoy, and add a sense of class to
the night. If that's not your cup of tea, you don't have to go. But I
think it really does appeal to a lot of Rover owners. Besides that, it
gets the vendor in the door and his donations to ROAV helps to lower
I would encourage some of the ROAV members to gather at The Cove sometime
soon to have a look at the land. I think you'll be impressed. Not only are
the trails just what an event of this size needs, the lay of the land is
perfect. It also adds some various activities to MAR like fishing, hiking,
paddle boats, swiming, volley ball, horse shoes, open camp fires, stage
for a band, etc.... Oh, and the little store on site sells ice!!!
The only other information I know of is about insurance. The Cove requires
a 1-million dollar, multiple incident policy. I don't know too much about
insurance so I cannot answer any questions about this... If more
information is needed someone who knows what they are talking about needs
to call The Cove.
Thanks for the quick reply. Obviously we have a lot of details to work out for the 60th event and sponsorship is of the up most importance. It could quite literally make us or break us. We will need to keep the participant cost close to or below our current fees I would think. Before we move much further on this I suggest we nail down the exact fees that the Cove will be charging with something in writing, identify some of our major expenses to put on the event (insurance, tents, meals?) and rough out a very basic budget and fee schedule to see if it is doable. I guess I'm crazy for talking about this before we even get through this years MAR but if ROAV is committed to putting on a world class event for the 60th then we will be competing with the National Rally and other events for LRNA sponsorship, vendor sponsorship and recognition as THE event to participant in. I think we can do this as we have aready held the largest LR event in North America, we just need to move forward in the planning and with good input and ideas (like yours below) it will be successful.
Long time no talk to. Is there another place that we should be talking to for comparison purposes? Or should we go back to the Cove and try to negotiate the price back down to $42/person? There has been talk about the cost, and to me it is not outlandish for what we are trying to do, it’s the 60th. It sounds like the Cove fits the need for trails and space; so, it appears to me that we negotiate the price. Daniel Chapman says he is getting some paper work from them let’s look it over change what we don’t like, send it back and go from there.
Are we having fun yet or what?
Paul J. Prosser
Not a lot of time left for this folks. If we are to announce at MAR !!
Just an update on The Cove.
I spoke with them again today just to clarify some of the information. The Cove is also going to send me a promissory letter on pricing for the ROAV event if you choose to hold the event there.
The price breakdown is as follows:
$37.00 per person for three days ($12.00 per day) This includes the camping, swimming, fishing, etc......
$15.00 per person (5.00 per day) for a "Land Use Fee" This is like what Rausch Creek charges or like Paragon charged. This includes the trails portion of The Cove, ATV's, 4x4's, etc....
Children under 12 will have a reduced fee (to be determined after speaking with his brother) and children under 2 are free.
So, The Cove total charges per person would be $52.00. There is NO discount if an attendee wants to lodge off-site. The $52.00 is their basic fee for an event. After the talk of the $15.00 fee, there was no mention of a 10% or 20% additional fee on top of the organizers charge.
Normal charges at The Cove are $32.00 per day for the ATV or 4x4 recreation, so he is working with the group to offer a nice discount.
As soon as I get the letter from The Cove outlining the price charges, I will forward it to all of you.
There are also some nice features available we can use (and will again be outlined in his response)
Shelters $10.00 per day
Stage for a band (pricing not definite, yet, as the stage is not complete. But he mentioned the price being in the neighborhood of $1000.00 per the 3-days)
2-cabins available for 75.00 per night and one for 150.00 per night.
This sounds much more reasonable to me. The greatest expenses we have with MAR are for infrastructure, i.e. tents, porta-potties and land use/reclamation. Our bill for tents alone this year will be over 6k. A lot of the costs will not be incurred or will be reduced by using a site such as the Cove so we should be able to keep our event fee reasonable. Daniel thanks for following up on this.
I can't remember if I mentioned this or not, but The Cove does have shower
trailers (with hot water) and restroom trailers. These are not Ritz
Charlton facilities at all, but they do serve the purpose. Out of memory,
I cannot remember if they're handicap accessible or not.....
There is one road in and one road out of the property. At the entrence,
there is a General Store that sells basic camping items, ice, etc...
don't see why ROAV cannot set-up registration there. That would save some
tent cost if nothing else. Then maybe a shelter could be utlized to sell
ROAV t-shirts, etc...
The 37.00 fee also included life-guards for the swimming area.
Anyway, for what it's worth.....
Doug with LRL
i would love to do a LRL Lounge event like we did in montrose. but have to
> have a venue that works. the current MAR location (coupled with the
> unrelenting rain) isn't very friendly for a good evening.
> and i can't really just put up a tent at the venue, the point of the
> Lounge is to provide benefit to subscribers & supporters rather than
> giving lots of stuff to freeloaders. so it must be a close, accessible,
> but a off site location.
> but i am willing to do a lot more at MAR by way of support. from
> publishing a special MAR edition (or insert) to brining in bands & booze,
> to organizing photographers at key points on the trail to provide shots to
> attendees, to simple cash. the thing I need is circulation and subscribers
> (as well as advertisers). if there is a way to wrap a subscription in with
> every MAR attendee or ROAV member, that really helps me.
> Doug Evilsizor
> Founder & Publisher
> LRL Magazine
Jeff, can you foward this to all the people on the list?
This letter is to act as a confirmation for you and your club that the
dates of October the 2nd through the 5th of 2008 have been reserved for
your MAR event, no other large event will be scheduled for those dates.
We are also reserving our two cabins for your use for those dates as well,
those cabins being the lakeside cabin and the floating cabin.
Our prices for this event will be our standard event fee of
$37(standard 3 day fee) per person for the event, plus an extra land
use fee of 15 per person.
You will need to secure an insurance policy either by your club or
through another group IE: big dogs, back country driving school...
We need to be added as an additional insured to this policy with the
minimums of one million dollars multiple occurrence on multiple day
clause, holding harmless our staff, our owners. We also have a
standard waiver that we can provide for your participants to fill
out. We look forward to working with you for this event.
I hope this satisfies your needs; if not please call me at 540-858-2882 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 540-858-2882 end_of_the_skype_highlighting or
send email to firstname.lastname@example.org
With warmest regards,
John Tackly Dan,
First, let me apologize for the club if you were indeed left out of the loop regarding the issue of the Cove as a MAR venue.* Apparently, the credit for ROAV considering the Cove at all* goes to you and the initial efforts you undertook.* As Mike said, there was a call for volunteers here on this bbs to go and inspect the Cove, which is how I came to know of it...sorry you missed that.* I was one of the travelers that day.* Fortunately, fellow ROAV member Dan Rao also volunteered to go.* He has attended several events there with other clubs (Big Dogs) and was our guide for the day.* After much internal discussion (which was privately done for obvious reasons) over several days following the scouting trip the Cove was eliminated from consideration for MAR.* You should have been included, however only Officers and members of the BOD participated.* At this time even Dan Rao does not know of the final decision.* A final decision will be announced at the ABM and publicised thereafter...stay tuned to this bbs if you can't make the ABM.
Next, I need clarification from you regarding permission to place your name in nomination for a VA Trails committee position or as a Regional Coordinator position (or both).* As only 1 member of the 7 member BOD, I do not have the authority to grant the conditions you have requested.* Mike Mason explained the reasons why in his reply to you on the bbs.* I can only assure you that your ideas and requests for funding that the committee brings before the BOD will be considered and voted on.* If approved by the BOD, you will get the requested funding...that's just how such matters are dealt with within the confines of the current ROAV bylaws.
I want to ask you again privately, may I place your name in nomination, without reservation?
Please advise before the ABM on this Saturday.