WTB: 1.2 LT230 - Bay Area, Truckee, Reno - Page 2 - Defender Source
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  #21  
Old March 26th, 2016, 02:36 AM
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Mike & Carrie Wendt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerDan View Post
Laying flat about 20X22 if the brake assembly is installed, w/o brake ass'y about 18X22. And a little over a foot tall. Weight is about 100 lbs. And depending on what model you wound up getting there may be a couple of studs on the bottom (and various other pointy protuberances) that could punch holes in the bottom of a tote, so bring something for cushioning.

As for time to complete the swap...I just did one on a 90, took me about 4 hours but I already had the floorboards removed which made it a bit easier. Not absolutely necessary though. And is this LT you're getting from an automatic truck, and if so do you know about removing the interlock solenoid?

Did you find a place to work on it yet? If not, I know a guy who has a hanger out at the Truckee airport and has a lift inside, he has a NAS 110 and a D90. Haven't spoken to him for a couple years but he might be amenable, very nice guy. I could try to get in touch with him.
YES! Please try to contact your friend. He has a lift? Woo Hoo! Of course I'm happy to pay for time and space.

Actually no, I don't know about the interlock solenoid.

I figure trying to keep the mess in a plastic box will be easier than a cardboard box.

Mike
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  #22  
Old March 26th, 2016, 11:40 AM
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Sent him an email, hopefully he'll respond fairly quickly. In past exchanges I've had to wait up to two weeks to hear back from him, he's quite a busy guy.

If he doesn't come through I'll reach out to a few other contacts in the area. I went to HS in Tahoe City, did 8th grade in Truckee before they built the Intermediate school in Tahoe City and still have a lot of old school friends there so I may be able to come up with somebody.

Also, I'll post up some info later today with some specific info that you'll need for swapping a newer LT230 into an older 90/110.
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1994 RRC SWB
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  #23  
Old March 26th, 2016, 03:24 PM
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He can't do it; his shop space has been converted to warehouse space for his business but he knows a guy with and Audi & Subaru tuning shop about 100 ft. from the tow yard where your 110 is parked and he CC'd him on my email as he "...may have an extra bay or know of resources to help."


As for pics and info to swap the LT230 into your 110, it would be helpful to know what it came out of but here's the gist of it:

The aforementioned interlock solenoid was used on DI and most DII LT230s that were installed behind automatic transmissions, but not on the '04 I believe as that year had the interlock moved to the cable-operated shifter itself. Maybe on the '03 as well, not too sure about exactly what year they changed that over. If you got a DII LT230, hopefully you got one from either an '04 or prior to mid-2002 as there were some in between there that had no facility for locking the center diff, so the front output housing would have to changed over from your old LT230, and I don't know what failed on that one.

NOTE: Some pics I have found on the 'Net, others are attachments of my own. The ones I've found I can insert inline but the attachments automatically load to the bottom of the post so I can't really place those inline and write text after them (if there's a way to do this I don't know what it is, I'm a car guy, not a computer geek!) So I'll just have to refer to them as Pic 1, Pic 2 and so on and you'll have to scroll down to see them.

Some tips for removal of the old LT:
Start by draining the old oil. There are two bolts holding the LT to the tranny which go directly into the LT230 case, and as soon as you pull the bottom one oil will start to drain out of the hole if it hasn't already been emptied, so it's not a good shortcut to figure you can just pull it without draining it. Also, keep those 6 attachment bolts (well, 5 bolts and one nut on a stud) in order; a couple of them are shorter than the rest, those are the ones that go through into the case and if you mix them up and put too long a bolt in the wrong hole, it will contact a gear inside the case and lock it up.

So look at the top of your replacement LT230 and look for a round cover with a square 4-bolt flange, this is what you're looking for:



Pull the four bolts and pry the cover off; it doesn't use a gasket, it's sealed with a black silicone-type sealant. Pull out the solenoid, it simply pulls straight out with your fingers (most of the time!) and remove the little flat washer/spacer underneath. Clean off the sealant and turn the cover 180 so the notch for the wire to come through is now facing towards the sensor shown to the right of the above pic; this will enable you to use less sealant to fill the gap formerly occupied by the wire. Seal with either silicone sealant, or (my preference) The Right Stuff sealant, a sort of advanced silicone-like gasket sealer that blows conventional silicone away.

Now you've dealt with that, (and assuming you've already removed the old LT from the 110) look at the parking brake linkage on your old LT. Your replacement LT most likely has a cable-operated parking brake, your 110 should have a mechanical linkage. The replacement LT will probably be missing two holes on the rear output that are needed to bolt this linkage to, it's a simple operation to install the linkage assembly on the replacement LT with all but those two bolts so that you can see and mark exactly where the holes will need to be drilled and tapped. Pics are attached Pics 1, 2 and 3 below. Alternatively, you can remove the rear output from your old LT and bolt it onto the replacement as long as the bearing inside isn't what failed. You may have contaminated oil carrying metal particles circulated all though the old LT, so I'd avoid using any internal parts off of it unless they check out okay and you have a way to clean them thoroughly, especially the bearings. If your replacement T-case came from a DII you will have to replace the output housing if you want to have a working speedometer as the DII doesn't have the hole for the speedo cable drilled.

Before you even leave the Bay Are to head up to Truckee I would contact Cerrone's European in Redwood City, they should either have or fairly quickly be able to get some new seals for you. You mentioned earlier that you would like to replace the output shaft seals, and you should replace the input seal too as it's often damaged in removing the transfer case from the vehicle. Another local source is a transmission shop in Burlingame that specializes in German transmissions, MZF-Bayer/Peter Schmid Transmissions.
The output shaft of the LT77 transmission (which I presume is still what you have in the truck if it hasn't been converted to an R380 or ZF auto) is threaded on the end (though that's not used unless you have PTO installed) and that is one obstacle you have to watch out for when installing the replacement LT as it and the splines on the output shaft can damage that input seal if you're not really careful. One trick I like to use is to remove the round, 6-bolt PTO cover and bearing carrier from the back of the LT and withdraw the input gear, makes getting the old LT out and the new one in a lot less of a hassle, If you have a ZF auto you can also remove the spud shaft which makes removal/installation even easier with almost no chance of buggering the seal. But pay close attention to the orientation of that gear, it will actually fit back in the wrong way 'round, and you don't want to do that!

That's mostly all I can think of right now, but if anything else pops into my head I'll post it up.
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1991 RRC 4.2, R380, LT230, TrueTrac, Detroit, sliders, 33s, blahblahblah....
1994 RRC LWB
1994 RRC SWB
1995 D90 project
1961 SII
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  #24  
Old March 26th, 2016, 03:30 PM
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Things are looking up, I think I've got you a space to work and even some help! PM sent...
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1994 RRC LWB
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  #25  
Old March 26th, 2016, 09:07 PM
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Mike & Carrie Wendt
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Great write up on what needs to be done. Thank you for taking the time.

In my 3 years on the Forum, I've understood this swap was a little more "plug and play" but i can handle all the steps above.

I've sent a text to Justin in Cordova who is selling the LT230. On thephone he talked about 3 different Disco I donors, I asked him which one or if it won't be from a Disco I. Waiting for a reply.

My 110 has a 300Tdi and R380 and I have no idea what year those are from. Or which parking brake is installed.

During the last 100 miles, we occasonally heard brief "gear noises". The last 2 miles the gear noise became loud and became a grinding noise. In the last mile the speedometer stopped, went to zero.

As I pulled into the rest stop, the LT230 locked up and I could not move in first or reverse. I shifted into low range and was able to move into a parking spot. Something was smoking.

I put on coveralls and crawled under. The smoke was coming off the LT and it was too hot to touch. I also touched the R380 and it was 'normal warm'.

After the flat bed dropped me at the Milne Towing yard (on River Street) I used low range to park. That seemed 'normal' in first and reverse.

Because of the way the LT locked in high range, I'm convinced I have a significant internal failure. When it happened, I considered driving to SFO in low range. But for 7+ hours? Nope! And if I do have broken parts floating around, they can work into the low range and lock up too.
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  #26  
Old March 26th, 2016, 09:26 PM
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Tell Justin I said "Hi". What would be nice is if the LT you get from him is from a '97-99 DI, the LT230Q model. Easier to convert than a DII unit and has the quieter gears...though in a diesel 110 I doubt you'd notice much difference between the Q and the earlier T model. So really, any DI LT230 would be great.

Sounds like the towing yard where your 110 is stored isn't the one that's next to the Audi/Subaru shop so one more short tow will be needed. But it's all sounding doable.

I think you will still have the same mechanical-linkage parking brake I was talking about earlier, rather than the later cable type. But it only took me all of 10-15 minutes to mark, drill and tap the two holes.

Sounds like you lost a bearing (or two!) I doubt there's much left that' usable at this point but you never know. Good call to not try to drive it in low range, it likely wouldn't have gotten you very far.
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  #27  
Old March 26th, 2016, 09:33 PM
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One specific question, the 2 holes that need to be drilled and and tapped are metric, correct? Do you know the drill bit size needed?

From your PM it looks like I have work space. Again, thank you.

I will carefully label the 5 bolts so as to return to the correct places. I will pull the PTO cover off and remove and label the orientation on the input shaft.

I ordered a full gasket and seal kit from Atlantic British that is supposed to arrive Monday.

Making a list of things to buy. Two or 3 quarts of gear lube?

Thank you,

Mike
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  #28  
Old March 26th, 2016, 10:03 PM
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Dan, Justin says hello back.

Justin also says "hopefully in the next month we will be supplying new sourced parts and most seals so if you ever need anything don't hesitate to ask."

My 'new' LT230 for my 'new' 110 is coming from an automatic Disco 1.

Mike
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  #29  
Old March 26th, 2016, 10:06 PM
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Actually, it doesn't really matter weather you drill and tap the holes metric or SAE as long as you use bolts to match. Of course the old bolts out of the existing T-case are already there and available, but I don't recall offhand what size they were...I think they were 8mmX1.25 but I wouldn't swear to it. Drill size for 8mm tap should be 17/64.

As for the gasket set from AB, you're actually better off not using the gaskets and just using the Right Stuff or other sealant. The newer LT230s didn't use gaskets, just the sealant. In a few places using the gaskets instead of sealant could actually slightly decrease the preload on the bearings due to the extra thickness of the gaskets.

And oil capacity is about 2-1/2 qts, so get 3.

And one other thing that just came to mind: The speedo cable on the earlier trucks is larger than the DI/RRC speed sensor connection so you have to pull the one out of your old LT and reuse it (if the teeth haven't stripped from the damage to your old LT) if you want to have a working speedo. However, your old LT is probably a 1.4, so your speedo gear should have 20 teeth while the 1.2 speedo gear has 23. This will make your speedo read a little off...or may correct it if it's already off!
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1994 RRC LWB
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  #30  
Old March 26th, 2016, 10:26 PM
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While I'm not totally OCD, except for a "got to get it done now field repair", I can't see any reason not to match the other bolts on the parking brake. I don't want to use the wrong bolt in the wrong hole if I need to pull it again. Or have the next owner curse me for mixing standard/metric.

I know a number of other guys who now avoid gaskets, so have a tube of "The Right Stuff" on my shopping list. And the set with gaskets was cheaper than buying 3 seals.

My 110 has a tach. Since I'm turning 2500 rpm at 70mph, I strongly suspect I have a 1.2. I'll count the speedo teeth. And look up the serial number off the broken ST.

For future discussion, what should I do with the broken ST? With plentiful inexpensive ST230 in the junk yards, is it worth the expense to repair? Of course there is value to doing the rebuild myself as a learning event.

Mike
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  #31  
Old March 26th, 2016, 10:39 PM
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I'd certainly do an exploratory on it. It's an interesting unit and it may well be repairable. I have a box full of odds 'n ends I've collected, probably enough to build another two full units (which I plan to do) in addition to the other three I have. I don't think you can ever have enough LT230s...!
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  #32  
Old March 27th, 2016, 05:07 PM
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LT230 seals

Major fart to my plans. UPS says they won't deliver the new seals until Tuesday afternoon.

Dan suggested checking Cerrone's European or MZF-Bayer/Peter Schmid for seals. Does anyone else have a source to check in the Bay Area or Sacramento?

Or does someone have a set (at least the input seal) they can sell on Monday?

What are the part numbers?

Thanks,

Mike
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  #33  
Old March 27th, 2016, 05:55 PM
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Land rover part numbers are:

Input Shaft Seal: ICV100000

Output Shaft Seals: FTC4939

Sent a message to a friend in Sac. who may have one...
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  #34  
Old March 27th, 2016, 05:58 PM
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Thank you again!

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerDan View Post
Land rover part numbers are:

Input Shaft Seal: ICV100000

Output Shaft Seals: FTC4939
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  #35  
Old March 28th, 2016, 12:30 PM
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Well, Land Rover Redwood City has the input seal in stock. But not the output.

MZF-Bayer/Peter Schmid Transmissions is transmissions. They didn't want to talk about a transfer case or parts for it!

Cerrone's European can get both late this afternoon.

Making progress!

Mike
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  #36  
Old March 28th, 2016, 12:56 PM
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Funny thing is, even though they show different part numbers the transfer case input shaft seal and ZF tranny output seal are the same sizes. I suspect there's some slight difference to the seal lips or something but I've used the tranny seal for the transfer case in a pinch. However, I suspected Cerrone's could get them for you the same day, and if you were only able to score the input shaft seal today, that's the main one you want as the output shaft seals can be changed at a later date with the T-case in situ. And I wouldn't even bother unless they started leaking, which is of course pretty easy to tell.

So are you back at home now?
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  #37  
Old March 28th, 2016, 03:52 PM
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Looking up. I found an input seal at Land Rover Redwood City. The big luck is I found a pair of output seals that I thought were in Florida!

Yes, Annie at Cerrone's European offered to get both today, but after 4:00 p.m. I need to be on the road by 2:00 p.m. to be able to pick up the LT230 today.

I'll be in Truckee around 8:00 tonight so I'll be ready early tomorrow morning!

Thanks,

Mike
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  #38  
Old March 29th, 2016, 09:39 AM
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Can someone tell me, Justin left the cable from the Disco handbrake attached the LT230 drum brake. Can I just thread that to my Defender handbrake? Or do I need to change out the handbrake drum assemblies?

Mike
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  #39  
Old March 29th, 2016, 11:38 AM
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If your 110 has a cable-actuated handbrake then you should be able to use it as-is, though I'm not sure if the cable length is compatible...it should be, seems to me. But if it's the linkage type like we talked about earlier then you're going to need to swap the entire assembly over, drum, backing plate etc. You need to remove the drum and flange to replace the seal anyway so as long a you're in that far, it's easy enough to take out the four bolts that hold the backing plate to the rear housing.
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  #40  
Old March 30th, 2016, 10:27 AM
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Looks like the shop will finish with my 110 around noon.

By the way, what exactly does the solenoid do in a Discovery?

Mike
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