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  #41  
Old January 26th, 2015, 10:26 AM
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Robert Davis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Lets keep that on a "need to know basis" ie on the down low
OK... good thing we didn't emphasize it with additional posts... the low down is more like it.

------ Follow up post added January 26th, 2015 10:31 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribe View Post
No, I'm sorry but it's not dangerous. I'm far from the slowest on the beltway. You are taking the subject of the 2.5 NA. out of proportions in my opinion. If you consider that the stupid speed limit is 55mph, this slow ass 2.5nad is perfectly suited for this road.
Pablo:
I sure as hell hope you don't run out of on ramp and are forced in front of a semi at 35 MPH when your trying to get up speed that has a driver with no patience for a slow "jeep" or failing brakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribe View Post
It'S PERFECTLY OK IF YOU HATE THE 2.5nad but let's not exaggerate the matter.
Exaggerate the 2.5 N/A performance is more like what's going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Beltway would make a great training ground for Nascar...
Totally inadequate for the number of cars and speeds that people do.
You know it!
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #42  
Old January 26th, 2015, 10:38 AM
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I understand that you guys love your trucks and engines. I don't think that most would agree with you that using your hazard flashers in daily driving on the highway/freeway would be considered safe.

I remember a decade or more ago there was a series truck that showed up @ MAR with a plywood disc fasted to the spare on the back door.
It simply said:

Caution
Slow Ass
British Truck
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  #43  
Old January 26th, 2015, 10:40 AM
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Jafir Elkurd
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I'm just pretending it's OK, until I can afford an engine with more power. It does make me feel calmer while driving around town though. I KNOW I cannot go any faster, so I don't get upset when the rest of traffic is slow too.
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  #44  
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:01 AM
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Robert Davis
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Originally Posted by jafir View Post
I'm just pretending it's OK, until I can afford an engine with more power. It does make me feel calmer while driving around town though. I KNOW I cannot go any faster, so I don't get upset when the rest of traffic is slow too.
That's because you are cool and attitude is often over half "the battle".
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #45  
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:11 AM
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Pablo Cocito
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Also, SLOW is relative! Around here if we get 2 snowflakes I OWN THE FAST LANE
Peace

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  #46  
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribe View Post
Also, SLOW is relative! Around here if we get 2 snowflakes I OWN THE FAST LANE
Peace


HAHAHA
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  #47  
Old January 26th, 2015, 01:36 PM
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The scenario that led me to totally give up on the 2.5 N/A was when you spend years driving the same old headache...
Being behind someone who is holding you up.
You want to go that 5 or 6 more MPH.
You wait 15 minutes for an opening in the next lane over to pass.
Now you've got your break and you pull out.
Next thing you know the vehicle that was holding you up speeds up just enough so you can't get by.
OR
A slight upgrade is encountered and you can't get by.
OR
You encounter a headwind and can't get by.
OR
A vehicle comes up behind you and wants you to "fish or cut bait"... so you can't get by.
Why can't you get by? NOT ENOUGH POWER!

So you get back behind the vehicle that was holding you up and remain stuck there unable to pass until you take the exit ramp.
The scenario is even worse on a 2 lane.
The scenario is even worse with RHD.

Lived it, done it for years and years, can tick the box, have the T-shirt, and so on.
It's terrible and can be dangerous.

I will never drive a land rover 2.25 or 2.5 (non TDI), gas or diesel with the exception to get it to the shop and pull the engine to install a more powerful replacement.

All my patience with slow LR 4 cylinder non-TDI engines got used up with 14 years of driving the above under powered scenario.

If you want a 1.4 T-case, Ashcroft has them.
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #48  
Old January 26th, 2015, 04:24 PM
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Bored today and thought I would take a stab at a power/drag chart. Using the factory peak power and torque number with a guess at a curve shape, published defender drag number and estimate of rolling resistance. I would guess most people's engine lack the factory spec top end power, which probably put the actual 5th gear power peak in a nice spot for the 1.4
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  #49  
Old January 26th, 2015, 09:01 PM
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Peter
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First off, as a new Rover owner it behooves me to listen to veterans like rdavis and Uncle Doug. Your comments are appreciated. On the same note, I would not begrudge anyone else for expressing their disdain for the POS engine that the 2.5NA is.


To clarify my earlier comments - the engine only drags on stretches of a significant uphill, say 5%. On such grades I find plenty of company in the slow lane. Typically, among a string of commercial vehicles and hypermiling Prius'es I am neither the slowest nor an obstruction to safe navigation. I turn my hazards on as a courtesy to manage other drivers' expectations and let them know that, unlike that dump truck or toyota pickup with furniture piled higher than it is long, I might not 'look' slow but I am. Also I've not had any problem getting up to a reasonable speed at on-ramps, even at go-kart sized urban ramps.

As for 'getting by' other vehicles, I believe the quote goes "We have met the enemy and he is us". .

I was deterred for a long time from committing to a 2.5NA. based on what I've read about it. That's a pity as non-turbo engined Rovers seem to be the most accessible way to get into the hobby price-wise. Perhaps due to the low expectations, I've been pleasantly surprised by the drive-ability of mine. Rather than overselling or underselling the engine, telling it like it is seems to me to be the best policy. I think the usability of the NA diesel depends strongly on one's local terrain and environment. I can see how my needs as an urban commuter typically constrained by traffic and signals are a lot different from the needs of someone in a rural setting who must frequently and quickly get around tractors and other slow vehicles on a 2 lane highway.

OP: If you ever get to do the 1.66 to 1.4 swap, please report back. I've wanted to do the same thing as part of a future 200Tdi swap but I'm curious whether it might make sense to phase it in.
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  #50  
Old January 27th, 2015, 09:03 AM
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Pablo Cocito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
The scenario that led me to totally give up on the 2.5 N/A was when you spend years driving the same old headache...
Being behind someone who is holding you up.
You want to go that 5 or 6 more MPH.
You wait 15 minutes for an opening in the next lane over to pass.
Now you've got your break and you pull out.
Next thing you know the vehicle that was holding you up speeds up just enough so you can't get by.
OR
A slight upgrade is encountered and you can't get by.
OR
You encounter a headwind and can't get by.
OR
A vehicle comes up behind you and wants you to "fish or cut bait"... so you can't get by.
Why can't you get by? NOT ENOUGH POWER!

So you get back behind the vehicle that was holding you up and remain stuck there unable to pass until you take the exit ramp.
The scenario is even worse on a 2 lane.
The scenario is even worse with RHD.

Lived it, done it for years and years, can tick the box, have the T-shirt, and so on.
It's terrible and can be dangerous.

I will never drive a land rover 2.25 or 2.5 (non TDI), gas or diesel with the exception to get it to the shop and pull the engine to install a more powerful replacement.

All my patience with slow LR 4 cylinder non-TDI engines got used up with 14 years of driving the above under powered scenario.

If you want a 1.4 T-case, Ashcroft has them.
In all your scenarios above there is one simple answer: You are trying to go faster than your vehicle allows. I think you even hurt your foot once trying to press your gas further than it goes?... There are solutions for every example you give above but none of those solutions imply "passing".

I drove the series 3 in my avatar a 2.25 N/A diesel round trip from Buenos Aires to Tierra del Fuego (over 3000 miles round trip). I also drove that vehicle many times from Bs. As. to San Martin de los Andes to ski (over 2000 miles round trip). I enjoyed every single one of those trips and I would do them again with the same vehicle. I took thousands of pictures; caught beautiful trout; and watched marvelous views.

Don't get me wrong, I love speed and fast cars! But I'm not expecting my landy to be one of those and it will never be no matter what engine I put in there. There are cars that are designed for speed and will do that better than a Land Rover Defender every time.

Having said this, I will probably go with a faster diesel in the future. But in the meantime I'm not missing anything and enjoying every day with my truck.

Cheers,

Pablo
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  #51  
Old January 27th, 2015, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribe View Post
In all your scenarios above there is one simple answer: You are trying to go faster than your vehicle allows. I think you even hurt your foot once trying to press your gas further than it goes?... There are solutions for every example you give above but none of those solutions imply "passing".

I drove the series 3 in my avatar a 2.25 N/A diesel round trip from Buenos Aires to Tierra del Fuego (over 3000 miles round trip). I also drove that vehicle many times from Bs. As. to San Martin de los Andes to ski (over 2000 miles round trip). I enjoyed every single one of those trips and I would do them again with the same vehicle. I took thousands of pictures; caught beautiful trout; and watched marvelous views.

Don't get me wrong, I love speed and fast cars! But I'm not expecting my landy to be one of those and it will never be no matter what engine I put in there. There are cars that are designed for speed and will do that better than a Land Rover Defender every time.

Having said this, I will probably go with a faster diesel in the future. But in the meantime I'm not missing anything and enjoying every day with my truck.

Cheers,

Pablo
Pretty neat post. That said the trucks can be safely driven much faster. We have an 83 110 here that does 85 all day long and faster if asked. It is the low hp engine and the 1.6 tcase that are the limiting factors here. I have two ex mod trucks here both with low mileage engines. We are pulling both in favor of drive trains that will make the trucks very driveable. I think the rover drive you installed is a neat way to add more gearing to be able to use what you have but the cost of that unit is pretty great, especially if you pay someone to install it.
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  #52  
Old January 27th, 2015, 12:22 PM
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Robert Davis
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Having choose a Land Rover as a daily driver on modern roadways in USA is very different from driving one in remote areas of South America or small town USA.

The point we are making is the 2.5 N/A is not suitable or safe for modern USA highways and any disagreement is a refusal to except the facts.
When I drove mine, it was scary the way impatient drivers consumed with their own self importance would drive an inch from your rear crossmember hoping to make you go faster never realizing that your foot was to the floor.
The simple fact is that in order to drive safely on the modern freeway, you need enough power to keep up with traffic and pass other vehicles, something the 2.5 N/A fails to accomplish.

So this is my last post on this subject regarding the 2.5 N/A epic performance failure.
I'll take a 110 with a 200TDI, OM617, or 4JB1-T.
My favorite is the OM617 for versatility and longevity, the 4JB1-T for power, and my least favorite of the 3, the 200TDI for it's ease of conversion.

We do still have a 2.5 N/A in the shop and some day want to rebuild it as a 200TDI.
The only parts I still need to locate is the 200TDI lower ladder and oil pan and a new set of pistons.
We have a 300TDI head and IP and a set of 200TDI rods.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #53  
Old January 27th, 2015, 12:39 PM
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I don't recall who it was either, but i did save their pic.

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  #54  
Old January 27th, 2015, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
So this is my last post on this subject regarding the 2.5 N/A epic performance failure.
Point taken.

I do look forward to taking on a 200Tdi swap sooner than later, when logistics and circumstances permit. In the meanwhile, here's another quote that I believe goes somewhat like this,

"You drive the Rover you have, not the Rover you might want or wish to have at a later time."
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  #55  
Old January 27th, 2015, 02:11 PM
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Zack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafir View Post
I don't recall who it was either, but i did save their pic.

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  #56  
Old January 28th, 2015, 02:43 PM
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Pablo Cocito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
Pretty neat post. That said the trucks can be safely driven much faster. We have an 83 110 here that does 85 all day long and faster if asked. It is the low hp engine and the 1.6 tcase that are the limiting factors here. I have two ex mod trucks here both with low mileage engines. We are pulling both in favor of drive trains that will make the trucks very driveable. I think the rover drive you installed is a neat way to add more gearing to be able to use what you have but the cost of that unit is pretty great, especially if you pay someone to install it.
Hey Uncle Doug if you are selling one of those low mileage slow ass failure of an engine when you pull them out let me know, I might be interested.
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  #57  
Old January 28th, 2015, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribe View Post
Hey Uncle Doug if you are selling one of those low mileage slow ass failure of an engine when you pull them out let me know, I might be interested.
Sure thing. These trucks are owned by customers so I'll let them decide what they do with the take out parts.
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